Good news Cp4 to Cp3

[jgillott]

Yet, the after market has a solution to this and Bosch does not!

Unfortunately it's not the first time we have all been through this with Bosch. 20 years ago, we were all experimenting with how to best keep the VP-44's alive in our 24-Valve 2nd gens. If I remember correctly, the aftermarket led the way then also, upgraded fuel systems, FASS, AirDog, and Raptor pumps, etc.

 

[Ozymandias]

I said it before and I say it again, European Diesel Fuel is "drier" then it's US counterpart.

The only and main difference is that the EU Fuel standard has a point lubrication - that point is lacking in the US fuel standards.

 

[cerberusiam]

The main source of failure is the roller lifters on the piston assemblies. Materials and QC have a huge effect on them because they are an asymmetrical design with really sharp ramps on the lobes, the faster it spins the more chance for failure. Lack of lube will effect them also and the CP-4 works the same way as a CP-3 in that it prioritizes fuel to the rail robbing the body of cooling and lube. What I have seen are burn marks on the lobes and rollers, either roller failure or lube failure. Only way to address that is more fuel for cooling\lube and better parts or they have a very finite lifetime and early failures are more common.

 

[MarkEagleUSA]

when it fails it sends metallic particles through the entire fuel system

Is there some sort of filtration that can be placed immediately after the pump to mitigate this particular problem?

 

[TFucili]

I know they make a kit for the Fords, as my buddy had one put on his. The theory is it protects downstream components. Still have the tank and lines to contend with, AFAIK. Others may have first-hand knowledge on these kits?

 

[cumminsturbofreak]

I know they make a kit for the Fords, as my buddy had one put on his. The theory is it protects downstream components. Still have the tank and lines to contend with, AFAIK. Others may have first-hand knowledge on these kits?

I have a thread on the other forum where I am doing a few prototypes for a kit for the Cummins CP4.2. So far, I’ve tested and verified the fitment on the pump. I am experimenting with different designs. This is new thing for me, but with some trial and error and the perfect test truck, I may get somewhere.

 

[cerberusiam]

Is there some sort of filtration that can be placed immediately after the pump to mitigate this particular problem?

Output of the pump is up around 30k psi, not a lot of components let alone filters for that pressure.

The design of the CP routes lube and cooling fuel back thru the same galleries that feed the rail side for safety reasons. If case pressure exceeds 250 psi it close in coming fuel and use cooling\lube fuel to feed the rail. If the pistons break or case cracks or something happens the high pressure fuel is not routed back thru the tank thru lines not meant for pressure. That stops a failure in the pump from blowing return lines and tanks spreading diesel everywhere that could easily ignite. Imagine a fog of diesel fuel from broken lines hitting a hot CAT or the pump seizing and spitting hot metal out into a fuel fog. Be like stacking fireworks on ammonium nitrate and a the fireworks catching fire, BIG boom potential.

Downside is contaminated fuel from poorly designed or bad metallurgy ends up in the downstream fuel system. The kits segregate the fuel in the case so return always goes back to the tank and fresh fuel is routed to the rail supply side, they do not mix in the pump. Also disables the case overpressure failsafe.

 

[Ozymandias]

I know they make a kit for the Fords, as my buddy had one put on his. The theory is it protects downstream components. Still have the tank and lines to contend with, AFAIK. Others may have first-hand knowledge on these kits?

Tank and Lines simply don't matter as the fuel filter will collect the debris next round.

I still don't get why all Manufacturers want to exchange the whole system, tank to I hector after that failure. It's nonsens.
Between fuel filter and injector maybe yes, but the whole system is a waste of money and resources.

 

[TFucili]

Tank and Lines simply don't matter as the fuel filter will collect the debris next round.

I still don't get why all Manufacturers want to exchange the whole system, tank to I hector after that failure. It's nonsens.
Between fuel filter and injector maybe yes, but the whole system is a waste of money and resources.

I don't necessarily think they would need replaced, though some insist on that, BUT I would definitely be flushing them out, and removing as much debris as humanly possible. I would not risk a new particle-maker pump failure by relying solely on the filters to mop up the last failure. YMMV.

 

[sag2]

Tank and Lines simply don't matter as the fuel filter will collect the debris next round.

I still don't get why all Manufacturers want to exchange the whole system, tank to I hector after that failure. It's nonsens.
Between fuel filter and injector maybe yes, but the whole system is a waste of money and resources.

FCA tried shortcutting it on warranty a few years back, and it was a major disaster. The entire system has to be completely cleaned and no one's going to spend the time to take every single component apart and clean it. So all the pieces get replaced including the rail which is very difficult to get the debris out of. if you are paying for it you can take the time and try to clean everything up but if you leave any debris in there it just ruins it all again.

 

[Ozymandias]

FCA tried shortcutting it on warranty a few years back, and it was a major disaster. The entire system has to be completely cleaned and no one's going to spend the time to take every single component apart and clean it. So all the pieces get replaced including the rail which is very difficult to get the debris out of. if you are paying for it you can take the time and try to clean everything up but if you leave any debris in there it just ruins it all again.

Like I said, replace between fuel filter and injectors.

I never spoke about cleaning a rail.

For the rest, the fuel filter will take care of it, that's why it is there, keep contamination out of the system.

 

[sag2]

If you don't pull the in tank lift pump and clean or replace, the metal in the reservoir eats the pump up and sends more metal up to the engine.

 

[HPSimpson]

If you don't pull the in tank lift pump and clean or replace, the metal in the reservoir eats the pump up and sends more metal up to the engine.

I recently replace fuel tank with Titan tank are you talk about the sump where pump is holds about 2-3 gallons! That doesn't register on fuel gauge it's just there as part of the prime .

 

[UglyViking]

Brand new here, Bob said the news has been published, does anyone know where to find that? Curious to know more.

Also, @cumminsturbofreak nice to see you here too! Maybe you won't need to make that disaster prevention block after all.

 

[SnoKing]

I recently replace fuel tank with Titan tank are you talk about the sump where pump is holds about 2-3 gallons! That doesn't register on fuel gauge it's just there as part of the prime .

Did you install the Titan tank yourself? Do you have a write up about that somewhere? I am thinking about put one in my 2015.

 

[Bob4x4]

Uglyviking it is an Fca source not meant for public viewing yet I am betting eventually it will get leaked before Fca does

 

[Bob4x4]

Just heard there are 2 new tsbs relating to injection pump changes. One warns of different calibrations for old pump and new pump the other points out the old has asymmetrical lobes vs new with symmetrical lobes and how to identify pumps. No mention of pump model nomenclature. No part numbers shown

 

[Jim W]

OK, I did some research on the fuel standards for both the European and US diesel fuel used. The US standard is ASTM D975 and the European is EN590 they both state what are the requirements for diesel fuel to be sold to the end user, as the minimum requirements. There are several difference in the fuel standard but the biggest one is the Lubricity requirement. The US standard allows a wear scar of 520um Max and the European allows a wear scar of 460um Max, under the three ball wear test. Both fuels are tested to 60 Deg's C for the lubricity test.

With that information, I guess as "dieselshadow" stated you could use a product like OPTILUBE or STANDYNE fuel additives if your are worried about your CP4.2 pump life. In a Chevron paper that was part of my review, under diesel fuel additives a statement was made and I quote " Engine and Fuel Delivery System Performance Additives
This class of additives can improve engine or injection system performance. The effects of different members of the class are seen in different time frames. Any benefit provided by a cetane number improver is immediate, whereas that provided by detergent additives or lubricity additives is typically seen over the long term, often measured in thousands or tens of thousands of miles and under "Lubricity" the final sentence states: Most ultra-low sulfur diesel fuels need a lubricity additive to meet the ASTM D 975 and EN 590 lubricity specifications. " end quote

Another item that was pointed out was that the fuel terminals were responsible for adding the additives package to fuels. Not the refinery since different fuels are sent through the same pipeline and some additives could be harmful to the different fuel sent such as gas, jet fuel, heating fuel and so forth. So, it is up to the fuel terminals to insure that the proper additives package is added to the diesel fuel.

 

[Jim W]

Is there some sort of filtration that can be placed immediately after the pump to mitigate this particular problem?

I know Cat use to use screens down steam of their Rexroth piston pumps on mining shovels. But these were only rated for 5,000 psi and 100GPM flow each to protect the down stream components from pump failures. But one screen assembly is larger than the air dog fuel system some of you use on your trucks.

 

[sag2]

I recently replace fuel tank with Titan tank are you talk about the sump where pump is holds about 2-3 gallons! That doesn't register on fuel gauge it's just there as part of the prime .

On the OEM pumps they have a cup the diameter of the assembly and about three inches deep that keeps the pump primed at low fuel levels. The pump and injector return drop right into it. So any metal that is in the high pressure system gets put into the fuel pump and the process just keeps repeating itself.