Remanufactured Engines

[CVR222NV]

Curious what everyone thinks about the amount of scuffing on the cylinder wall?

 

[Tuesdak]

What is going on with all the cavities in this cylinder?

 

[CVR222NV]

Not sure it is cavities. I don't recall seeing that when I inspected. I would point out the particles in the piston bowl. Not sure of the source. There is a lot of reflections in the photo. I already put it back together. I guess I could pull the head again. It will only take about 45 minutes!

 

[Tuesdak]

I thought I circled it in the last upload. Also a pic of the valves on the head for this cylinder would be interesting.

 

[CVR222NV]

Here's a photo of the valves. #4 has carbon buildup. I believe that the valves to the left of #4 in the photo are the valves for that cylinder. Some carbon, not near as bad as #4, but not as clean as the valves to the right of #4.

 

[cerberusiam]

Yep, melted that sucker right down and separated its components. The pitting in th eother cylinder is likely the FOD from the melted one, looks like that piston with the cylinder pitting got pretty warm to and the rings touched. Definitely jammed the ring son the melted piston then finished it off. Injector went bad and over fueled it way too much for too long with the carbon build up. Had some running time with a bad injector to build that much carbon.

 

[CVR222NV]

Yep, melted that sucker right down and separated its components. The pitting in th eother cylinder is likely the FOD from the melted one, looks like that piston with the cylinder pitting got pretty warm to and the rings touched. Definitely jammed the ring son the melted piston then finished it off. Injector went bad and over fueled it way too much for too long with the carbon build up. Had some running time with a bad injector to build that much carbon.

With the smoking gun revealed it is time to come to the confessional and admit to the cause of this catastrophe so it might help others to avoid this in the future. I had purchased a trailer last November and had to drive to just SE of Dallas to pick it up. When I left Vegas the truck was running great. When I stopped at a truck stop outside of Ft Worth to fuel up I noticed that the engine had a little miss. I checked the oil and it was down so topped it off and added some Power Service I believe. When I got to a friends house in Ft Worth to pick up a load to haul back to Vegas I noticed that it was still running a little rough. When I picked up the trailer (10K lbs) I could feel the engine missing at low RPM's as I pulled away but it smoothed out at highway speeds. I kept it at 65 max and watched the EGT's thinking it was okay. I did suspect an injector was going out. Coming back on I40 just West of Flagstaff started getting a knock and then a check engine light. Coming out of Kingman I was trying to pass a slower big rig when the rattle got so bad I had to pull over. Motor running really rough at this point. Looking back I was probably already toast but drove the rest of the way to Vegas going 30-40 mph. Anyone who knows that stretch of Highway 93 knows that it means going down to Hoover Dam and back up the other side smoking the whole time. This has been a very, very, very expensive lesson! When I took the truck to my regular diesel mechanic to install new injectors he informed me I had a dead piston so a much bigger problem. I then had a good friend who is a very experienced diesel mechanic come to the house with his service truck and he believed I had 3-4 dead pistons by feeling the exhaust manifold. Regardless he said the head will have to come off to fully diagnose. Now that I have confirmed piston #4 it remains to be determined what is going on with the rings on the other cylinders. I hope to get that diagnosis from DFC Diesel once they tear down the motor.

 

[cerberusiam]

Yeah, it was badly wounded when it started missing. Might have gotten by with a piston and hone job at that point, but, look how long it ran mortally wounded with literally a stake in its heart. Any other brand and you would have been 10-7 at the outset. LOL!

Amazed it ran that long, I-40 back to Kingman and then up 93 is no stroll in the park.

 

[CVR222NV]

I emailed the photos to DFC Diesel and they are saying #4 will likely requires a sleeve. They will bore out to a maximum of .40 over. Does it look like there is that much damage to require a sleeve? I don't want a sleeve!

 

[jghflys]

Does it look like there is that much damage to require a sleeve?

I have been through this on a 2005 and 2006 and neither one needed sleeves. I would not use a shop that says you likely need a sleeve by looking at a picture.

 

[CVR222NV]

After many emails and phone calls with Kyle at DFC Diesel and based on many of the suggestions from my TDR brothers this will be the build:

• 5.9L Dodge Cummins 24V 480hp QSB/Industrial (’03-’04 Bowl Style) Pistons
  
• CERAMIC COATED PISTON CROWNS AND DRY FILM COATED SKIRTS
  
• Total Seal Rings with a gapless second ring
• GEN 2 OEM Forged Cummins Rods
  
• ARP series 2000 head studs
• Colt Cams Stage 3 camshaft
• Hamilton Cams 103lb HD valve springs
• Manton HD push rods
• Rockers from a 6.7 engine as they have a cross cut pin for better lubrication and use an updated tip we also add more clearance between the pin and rocker
  
• New SBI valves, cast guides, oversized valve seats and seals
  
• 5.9/6.7 ENGINE OIL COOLER
  
• Bolt in rear aluminum freeze plug
• Balanced rotating assembly
• Blueprinted cylinder block

Now I will start cleaning all the parts stripped off the engine and will have some questions on my options on the CP3 fuel pump.

 

[cerberusiam]

Not sure about the gapless second ring, they have their own issues on high compression engines but there are a lot of factors that go into gapless ring performance. Definitely will help with blow by, especially if the compression ring gap is widened to a safer zone. Life expectancy is probably more what you are worried about and that is a big question mark on gapless rings. The standard ring sets work so well if gapped correctly it is hard to move to something unproven.

No real problem with a sleeve in an ISB, they are not wet sleeves. Literally millions of engines rebuilt with sleeves and unless you are pushing the limits doubtful you will have issues, would not let that get in the way of choices. Will have to measure and see if it will clean to .040 over, even then you have lost cylinder wall thickness and that may not be ass attractive as a sleeve.

 

[CVR222NV]

Not sure about the gapless second ring, they have their own issues on high compression engines but there are a lot of factors that go into gapless ring performance. Definitely will help with blow by, especially if the compression ring gap is widened to a safer zone. Life expectancy is probably more what you are worried about and that is a big question mark on gapless rings. The standard ring sets work so well if gapped correctly it is hard to move to something unproven.

No real problem with a sleeve in an ISB, they are not wet sleeves. Literally millions of engines rebuilt with sleeves and unless you are pushing the limits doubtful you will have issues, would not let that get in the way of choices. Will have to measure and see if it will clean to .040 over, even then you have lost cylinder wall thickness and that may not be ass attractive as a sleeve.

Cerb, this is what I believe they are using:

GAPLESS DIESEL RINGS (totalseal.com)

DFC indicated they are doing this on EVERY engine they build.

As to the sleeve and going .040 over that is exactly what DFC advised. Once they get the block they will assess and we will make a decision.

 

[sag2]

Why would they sleeve it and go .040 over when they can just put a .020 over OEM piston in it?

 

[CVR222NV]

Why would they sleeve it and go .040 over when they can just put a .020 over OEM piston in it?

As I understand it these are my options as to the cylinder block:

1. If my block cleans up at .020 then use my block.
2. If my block, and specifically cylinder #4, cleans up at .040 then I can use my block with the understanding that the cylinder walls will be thinner.
3. If all cylinders except cylinder #4 clean up at .020 but cylinder #4 only cleans up at .040 or greater put a sleeve in cylinder#4 and bore to .020.
4. If I do not want a sleeve I can exchange my block for a replacement block with all cylinders bored to .020. There is no additional cost for this option.

Options 1, 2 and 3 all use my block. Option 4 uses an exchange block.

With regard to option 4 above DFC Diesel has represented that all 5.9 blocks from 2003 to early 2007 are interchangeable. Is there anyway to confirm that? I know that from the Cummins QuickServe Mobile App that the part number for the 2006 (my truck) and the early 2007 (SIL's truck) cylinder blocks is part number 3970792 and I can find that part number on the ledge where the oil filter housing attaches to the block. I do not have access to a 2003 to early 2004 or a 2004.5 to 2005 truck to confirm if they are the same part number. Any thoughts if I go with option 4?

 

[cerberusiam]

Basic design of the 5.9 block form 2003 to 2007 should be the same with the caveat the black has provisions for j-jets. Early SO 5.9's were still using saddle jets and not positive all those blocks were drilled for j-jets, that would be the only thing that *could* be different. Heads were different part #'s due the valve and valve seat changes.

There is little to no concrete info on using gapless rings in a non-performance application. Even reading Total Seals literature it is all high performance engines they are targeting. Since we all know high performance means it gets pulled down and refreshed 1 to n times per year that brings into question reliability variable. In an FI engine the burning question is the life expectancy, just not real info on it. Too many disparate experiences to say good or bad. For say a blown TA engine controlling blowby and fuel dilution it may be applicable, for a DD diesel engine is it necessary or advisable? If they are so great at blow by and fuel dilution control why are they not used by OE?

Does DPC say WHY they use them? What they are trying to address? If they are opening the top ring clearance for longevity and trying to control blowby that is one scenario.

Also begs the question what they are setting top ring clearance at with all the changes you are doing. OE specs are on the tight side with rings having a nasty side effect of touching with too much heat in the cylinder. Broken rings on these emission CR engines are rather high occurrence for that very reason.

 

[CVR222NV]

Basic design of the 5.9 block form 2003 to 2007 should be the same with the caveat the black has provisions for j-jets. Early SO 5.9's were still using saddle jets and not positive all those blocks were drilled for j-jets, that would be the only thing that *could* be different. Heads were different part #'s due the valve and valve seat changes.

There is little to no concrete info on using gapless rings in a non-performance application. Even reading Total Seals literature it is all high performance engines they are targeting. Since we all know high performance means it gets pulled down and refreshed 1 to n times per year that brings into question reliability variable. In an FI engine the burning question is the life expectancy, just not real info on it. Too many disparate experiences to say good or bad. For say a blown TA engine controlling blowby and fuel dilution it may be applicable, for a DD diesel engine is it necessary or advisable? If they are so great at blow by and fuel dilution control why are they not used by OE?

Does DPC say WHY they use them? What they are trying to address? If they are opening the top ring clearance for longevity and trying to control blowby that is one scenario.

Also begs the question what they are setting top ring clearance at with all the changes you are doing. OE specs are on the tight side with rings having a nasty side effect of touching with too much heat in the cylinder. Broken rings on these emission CR engines are rather high occurrence for that very reason.

I had already asked DFC if they were using the Total Seal gapless rings on my build and the response was that they use them on all their builds. I followed up based on your request to get a little more detail:

1. Does that include the Ford and Chevy’s as well? Yes it does and on every level from a short block right to a tow haul HD
2. Why did DFC decide to go that route? DFC is always pushing to offer our customers the best quality engine with the best quality parts. This is something we integrated into our builds as of January 1st 2021
3. What are the benefits other than reduced blow by? Better cold starts, better compression sealing, less soot contamination in the oil are also benefits of a gapless ring

Looks like they are using the gapless rings for every engine build they do. Very recent change so I guess only time will tell.

 

[sag2]

Unless your block is really bad I would think it would clean up at .020. I would always use a known block (or head etc.) over one that could have been overheated or damaged in another way. At least with yours, you know what you have.

 

[CVR222NV]

sag2 I hear you. Many have made the same comment about the damage and I really hope that it turns out that my block cleans up at .020 over as that is my clear preference. The "normal" transaction with DFC is to purchase a remanufactured long block from their existing inventory and they would ship the remanufactured long block in a shipping container in which you would place your core exchange block and ship back to DFC. For the very reason you state I was not comfortable with that process. Since I would be sending my block back to DFC anyway I inquired if they could just remanufacture my engine and they said they certainly could but it would take longer. Not a problem as my truck is not my daily driver. If I have to go the Option 4 route and exchange blocks I will have additional questions for sure. DFC is already looking for a block that has the same part number (3970792) for a 2006/2007 in the event I have to do an exchange. I have already determined based on my own research that you cannot just purchase a new Cummins block as they all show discontinued (Cummins or Dodge). The closest you get is a short block but that is cost prohibitive if you desire to do any customization (pistons, cam, rings, balancing, etc.). A word of caution here because I did run across a "new 5.9 block" on CL but after further inquiry the seller admitted it was a block made in China. No bueno! Another concern is the "Cast 53" blocks but it appears that those were manufactured pre-2003. Below is a link to an article I found on the Internet (not sure how authoritative it is).

The Infamous Cummins 53 Block (dieseldatabase.com)

I believe my block was manufactured in Brazil as the head has the word "Tupy" stamped on it. I did not pull off the front cover before the engine left my house and understand that there is additional stamping on the block at that location. I know that my G56 transmission is also made in Brazil. However the truck was "Hecho in Mexico" although it was probably just assembled there the best I can determine. Needless to say I share your concern on an exchange block on numerous levels! I will do further due diligence if I go that route as I am OCD Anal by nature!

 

[Axekicker]

CVR222NV, If you have not locked-in with DFC yet, I recommend you stop by Diesel Specialists on Production Court in NLV and talk with Daryl (owner). Look at his 2006 motor while your there (he's real proud of it and rightly so). I lost the #6 cylinder in my 5.9 (broken rings) and did my rebuild similar to what your planning, right down to the Colt stage 3 cam...although I had another shop do my rebuild several years ago.... but if I had it to do over I'd have Daryl handle it this time. He's done a lot of work on my truck since the rebuild and he's very sharp and stands behind his work. He also put the BD trans and FASS 'Platinum' lift-pump in my 2004.5. Pay him a visit. I'm a fan of 'staying-local' with repairs because there's always 'stuff' that needs to be dialed-in weeks and months after the rebuild and you won't get that type of service with an out-of-state or out-of-country rebuilder. My .05 cents.