Need help diagnosing vibration 60-75mph

[Sportfury70]

Hello all. First of all my truck is an ‘03 QCSB 4x4 with the NV5600 and 245k on the odo. Engine is all stock, and truck has 3”level, 1” rear synergy shackles, T steering upgrade, carli trackbar, TCG 1/2” longer control arms, and bilstein 5100s all the way around. Stock rims wear Wildpeak ATW3 315/70R17s.

I’ve had this shake for a while now, and have replaced any questionable part I can think of. Ball joints were out of spec, so I put in NAPA HD ball joints as EMF was out of stock for a while and I couldn’t wait any longer. Front right hub was just a little loose so I put in new SKF hubs. Both axle shafts have new spicer u joints. Front DS was rebuilt and balanced with spicers, as well as rear DS and also had the yoke damper removed. The front DS is removed right now but it makes no difference on or off. Upgraded to the T style steering, and I’ve had my tires balanced 3 times now ( last was roadforce balance). One of my control arm bushings was off center so I replaced all 4 with tubular control arms. I also replaced the trans mount. I’ve done all this work over the past two weeks, and my pocket hurts from it.

Ive gone so far as using my spare on each corner of the truck to see if I can eliminate the shake, still no dice. I put a go-pro under the truck to try and locate the source, but see nothing out of the ordinary.

Each upgrade had made improvements in the overall ride quality, but the damn shake is still consistent from 60 to 75 mph. It feels like it’s coming from the front end, but i don’t feel it in the steering wheel. The vibration oscillates a little bit, kinda comes and goes in severity, and is similar to an out of balance or out of round tire. When I take the truck out of gear and coast at idle, it’s still there; so no flywheel or crank damper issues.

Oh and I’ve had it aligned to Don Thurens specs.

I’ve fixed every thing I can think of, and scoured the forums for more ideas but I’m coming up empty.

Has anyone fixed this issue with something else that I haven’t already done? I’m close to giving up and just trying to live with it, but it drives me nuts on the highway. I commute over an hour each way for work, and will be driving back and forth from NH to Buffalo NY for the next year on a monthly basis. Someone has got to have a fix!

 

[ranger 393]

Does you truck have a 2 piece drive shaft? Mine had that from the day I bought it, and the dealership tried to tell me it was the front end alignment which is not true..
The rear drive shaft ,imo, is a bad design. The center carrier bearing is to far away from the universal joint where the two drive shafts meet.. I spaced my center carrier bearing down an inch and my vibration went away.. if you don't have a two piece drive shaft try looking at your universal joints..

 

[jghflys]

I agree with ranger 393. I had vibration and found one U-joint bad and the center support rubber badly cracked. Replacing all u-joints and the center support solved my problem.

 

[Sportfury70]

Sorry fellas, I don’t have a two piece. It’s a one piece DS that Has all new u joints and a fresh balance.

Every u-joint on the truck is new for that matter.

 

[Sportfury70]

I will say that putting the new control arms reduced the severity of the shake by about 20-30%, which is more than any other change I’ve made. Not sure what that means other than soft bushings allowing more movement in the old arms.

 

[Superdawg]

Years ago, I had put on upper and lower tubular control arms w/ rubber bushings and it drove terribly. I put the stock uppers back on. I ended up replacing the lowers w/ a set that had threaded solid steel for adjustment and johnny joints on both sides. Much less play. More road feel though but that's okay. I can't remember the brand off hand.
You probably won't hear much praise for Napa ball joints in your heavy truck. I have been eyballing the EMF ball joints. The US to CAD exchange rate makes them look even better.

 

[Smoke Eater]

I've had the same issue, 04 3500 QCLB 4X4, with a 2 piece drive shaft. Seems to come and go, not always the same fix, but it's usually a u-joint or the carrier bearing. Different tires and sizes over the last 10 years, so I don't think it's a wheel balance issue.
One thing I have noticed, the previous owner elongated and oversized the holes on the bracket that holds the carrier bearing. He was going through seals on the output shaft of the transfer case, so he would move the carrier bearing slightly to change where the yoke would ride on the seal. Turned out the yoke was machined out of round, it was never going to be right.
I'm not sure what the holes on that bracket look like stock, not sure if they're oversized or not. I just used a plumb bob and a square to make sure my drive shaft was square from the rear pinion to the tailshaft, then scribed lines around the carrier bearing bracket to make it easy to line up again. I should really just get a new bracket or a 1 piece shaft.

 

[Sportfury70]

Years ago, I had put on upper and lower tubular control arms w/ rubber bushings and it drove terribly. I put the stock uppers back on. I ended up replacing the lowers w/ a set that had threaded solid steel for adjustment and johnny joints on both sides. Much less play. More road feel though but that's okay. I can't remember the brand off hand.
You probably won't hear much praise for Napa ball joints in your heavy truck. I have been eyballing the EMF ball joints. The US to CAD exchange rate makes them look even better.

Yeah I didn’t want the NAPAs, but the steering wander was getting real bad and I had a trip coming up. I think EMF had a warehouse fire or something, so they were out of stock for a long while. I’ll keep the NAPAs in until they start to give some play, then go with the EMFs. I know carli/dynatrack/ etc are too notch, but it’s simply not worth the extra expense when EMF seems to have the same track record.

Either way, there is zero play up and down on the lowers, and zero play in and out on the uppers as verified by my alignment shop and my cheapie dial caliper. I only get a couple thousandths movement on the dial but I feel it’s more from the dial face wiggling as I crowbar the tire than anything else.

 

[Sportfury70]

I've had the same issue, 04 3500 QCLB 4X4, with a 2 piece drive shaft. Seems to come and go, not always the same fix, but it's usually a u-joint or the carrier bearing. Different tires and sizes over the last 10 years, so I don't think it's a wheel balance issue.
One thing I have noticed, the previous owner elongated and oversized the holes on the bracket that holds the carrier bearing. He was going through seals on the output shaft of the transfer case, so he would move the carrier bearing slightly to change where the yoke would ride on the seal. Turned out the yoke was machined out of round, it was never going to be right.
I'm not sure what the holes on that bracket look like stock, not sure if they're oversized or not. I just used a plumb bob and a square to make sure my drive shaft was square from the rear pinion to the tailshaft, then scribed lines around the carrier bearing bracket to make it easy to line up again. I should really just get a new bracket or a 1 piece shaft.

My driveline shop can build one for less than the cost of an oem replacement. If your near NH pm me and I’ll put you in contact with him.

I’ve always heard that two piece was garbage, I’m glad mine has the one piece.

 

[Blakers]

I too have an 03 CTD with 6 speed. I had vibration problems that I tried to track down and correct with new u-joints, etc. I knew everything else was fine. It turned out to be the tires. Almost from day one, the General ATx tires would go out of balance. This happened the first day after I bought them and ran them about 100 miles. Took it back in and they rebalanced them. Then they went out of balance again in about 6 months. Over and over they rebalanced them and at least one of them would go out of balance within 50 miles. They probably rebalance them 8 times and couldn't figure out what was wrong. I finally decided to take them off and put the original 15 year old factory tires and rims back on and try it. Smooth as can be.

The tire store sent those Generals back for warranty and I have never heard a word in over 2 years now. Will never buy them again. I think something inside them was coming apart that kept changing the balance. And it did it from day one.

 

[Sportfury70]

I too have an 03 CTD with 6 speed. I had vibration problems that I tried to track down and correct with new u-joints, etc. I knew everything else was fine. It turned out to be the tires. Almost from day one, the General ATx tires would go out of balance. This happened the first day after I bought them and ran them about 100 miles. Took it back in and they rebalanced them. Then they went out of balance again in about 6 months. Over and over they rebalanced them and at least one of them would go out of balance within 50 miles. They probably rebalance them 8 times and couldn't figure out what was wrong. I finally decided to take them off and put the original 15 year old factory tires and rims back on and try it. Smooth as can be.

The tire store sent those Generals back for warranty and I have never heard a word in over 2 years now. Will never buy them again. I think something inside them was coming apart that kept changing the balance. And it did it from day one.

Man this post scares me. I’m starting to get a sinking feeling that this might be my issue.
A buddy at work has an ‘06 with stock wheels and tires, he offered to let me swap for a day to see if that’s my problem. I’m going to take him up on it next Tuesday.
If it’s not the tires, then the next things to look at are the rear leaf spring bushings and maybe front rotors. The rotors are only a year old are bendix fleet metlok with matching pads. They are the best brakes I’ve ever had on the truck so I can’t imagine they would throw off balance that much, but I’m not ruling anything out right now.
We will see what Tuesday looks like.

 

[Sportfury70]

Okay so the big tire swap was done. The results are kind of 60/40 or 80/20..

the truck does ride much better with the stock tires. But there IS still a small vibration at the same speeds. If I’m being honest with myself though, if it was at that level of NVH to begin with I would not have batted an eye.

My buddy drove his truck with my tires on it and he said there definitely was a small vibration at highway speeds, but didn’t describe anything like what I’ve been dealing with. Unfortunately due to my busy schedule I was not able to drive his truck myself.

the results of my little experiment are that I think there is still something small wrong with my driveline/suspension, and the larger tires manifest it worse than with stock. At this point I’m done throwing time and money at it. When I get a chance in a few months I’ll replace the rear leaf spring bushings, and maybe have a shop look at the differentials.

in the meantime I’ll be looking for a set of stock 18s so I can be ready to buy some 285/75R18 tires. My current tires have about 35k on them, and are still going strong. If the right deal pops I’ll swap early, but I’m just going to learn to deal with the vibration for now (unless something lets go and forces me to fix something I somehow missed)

 

[Blakers]

I would jack the rear end of your truck up and run it with the stock tires and see if you get any vibrations. Have a friend watch for things like shakes, bent rims, etc.

How are your rear wheel bearings?

 

[jghflys]

I would jack the rear end of your truck up and run it with the stock tires and see if you get any vibrations.

You forgot the "hold my beer" part.

 

[Sportfury70]

I would jack the rear end of your truck up and run it with the stock tires and see if you get any vibrations. Have a friend watch for things like shakes, bent rims, etc.

How are your rear wheel bearings?

I’ve put a camera under the truck on the highway and saw nothing, but that doesn’t mean much. The only helper I have is my wife, and I know if I asked for help doing what you describe she would either laugh and walk off or think I got hit in the head.

I might try jacking it up and running it at speed later down the line, but it’ll have to be in a parking lot or a buddies place, it’s simply not safe to do in my u shaped uneven driveway.

The rear bearings don’t make any noise, and when pushed and pulled they don’t move or clunk, but that’s the extent of my inspection on them. Aything specific you think I should test back there?

Good thoughts, keep them coming!

 

[AEdelheit]

Have you had the tires road force balanced? If not I would start there and also double check tow in as man shops will say it is to a certain spec when it is not and too much toe in can cause vibration and handling issues. Another thing that fairly easy to do it remove the front drive shaft and see if the vibration is still there.

 

[Blakers]

I’ve put a camera under the truck on the highway and saw nothing, but that doesn’t mean much. The only helper I have is my wife, and I know if I asked for help doing what you describe she would either laugh and walk off or think I got hit in the head.

I might try jacking it up and running it at speed later down the line, but it’ll have to be in a parking lot or a buddies place, it’s simply not safe to do in my u shaped uneven driveway.

The rear bearings don’t make any noise, and when pushed and pulled they don’t move or clunk, but that’s the extent of my inspection on them. Aything specific you think I should test back there?

Good thoughts, keep them coming!

By jacking it up and running it you might notice something out of round or out of balance, kind of a "humping" sensation or your truck actually humping up and down. It's just a shot. I know it may seem dangerous, but if you or someone is in the cab ready to apply brake, you should be good. I didn't have any helper handy, so I let my truck idle in high gear and got out and looked. Probably not the smartest thing to do.

The other guy's suggestion about removing the front driveshaft is a good idea.

When you think about this vibration, think about the frequency you hear or feel. The tires will have a slower frequency of motion compared with the driveshalfs as they are spinning much faster than the axles. You may be able to identify the source if you can narrow down the frequency.

 

[Sportfury70]

Sorry for the late reply. I’ve been dealing with a PCS and the truck is only one of a hundred things that have my attention.

the front driveshaft has been removed for a while. I took it off months ago to begin isolating the vibration, and stripped one of the Torx so bad I had to weld a bit to it to get it off. Simply haven’t reinstalled it yet, but I finally got new hardware yesterday for it.

The last time I had the tires balanced it was on a roadforce machine. They said they were difficult to balance but were not out of round. TBH the techs there did not impress me, so I may have it redone at a different shop. I’m still leaning on the tires being the root of the problem. The vibration is a lower frequency like that of tire, and definitely not a higher frequency like that of a driveline component.

the alignment is spot on to don thurens specs. There’s an old school optical alignment shop that is also the only Amsoil dealer near me. The guy is in his sixties and was impressed how close it got it with just a tape measure. Needless to say the alignment is not the issue.

I’ve noticed that at exactly 66 mph there is a sweet spot where the vibration is only intermittent and soft when it’s present. 55-65 it’s mostly constant, and 67 to about 75 it’s rather harsh. At 80 and above it’s smooth sailing, but I’m just not in that much of a rush at my age anymore.

the other day I popped the rear springs out of their perches to look at the bushings, they looked good with no obvious or tell tale deterioration.

The big trip from NH to Buffalo will tell me more. If it gets worse, I’ll rebalance the tires (4th time?) and see if that makes it better. If it does I’ll be saving up for some new rubber in the near future.

 

[bcbender]

make sure the front DS is good, and the CV joint is good, that was the problem on mine and after having the CV joint rebuilt and front shaft balanced it was smooth as butter,

 

[nibroc]

make sure the front DS is good, and the CV joint is good, that was the problem on mine and after having the CV joint rebuilt and front shaft balanced it was smooth as butter,

good to know bc