Timken Clutch Release bearing, NV5600

[Darkbloodmon]

Self aligning. The bearing is not centrally located on the collar in the box or in hand.

The TO bearing used was the same kind (not the same bearing) in the Dual disk clutch. From memory of opening up the dual disk and inspecting the parts prior to install It didn't appear to be a self aligning bearing. The bearing is a Koyo Japan CTS2A-1 or CT52A-I

Here is a link to the TO bearing pic, it was 11MB to big to upload here. You can zoom in on it.

It should be pretty quiet.

I've done this already, its not there noise and catching sounds of friction.

the bearing collar and how it is or isn't sliding on the guide tube

I'll check this today when I pull the slave cylinder out and check fork movement. From the sound and feel im getting in the pedal I'm expecting friction.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Pulled out the slave cylinder and slid the fork by hand a few times. I can move it, feels like its greased, I can hear it hit the diaphragm fingers, I can also hear the movement on the collar as it slides; its not even but maybe that just me being over sensitive looking for a smoking gun.

Here is a link to a short video of the rattle I hear more often during a cold start. Video cuts off as I struggle to get my phone out the mount but the rattle was audible enough on video for me.

 

[bcbender]

Did you replace or repair the shift fork? I cant remember if it was mentioned, both NV5600s we did had worn, or cracked shift forks when we disassembled them to replace the clutch and required repair.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Did you replace or repair the shift fork? I cant remember if it was mentioned, both NV5600s we did had worn, or cracked shift forks when we disassembled them to replace the clutch and required repair.

All new components with the 1947 OK HD kit, fork, hardware, TO bearing.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Is there any reason why a clutch pedal would be easier to push through its travel while the engine is off versus when the engine is on?

12/20/21

7:53am Cold start. Ambient temperature was 30* 19mi trip, I could not down shift in 4th gear the entire trip. Trans temp did not hit 110*.

10:38am end of second trip 19 mi back home, ambient was 39*, I could down shift into 4th gear the entire trip back, Trans temp did not hit 130*. As I get closer to home the clutch pedal starts sticking and having resistance in its travel. In my drive way writing the log for the trip and lastly shutting the engine off I push the clutch pedal in with the engine off and its night and day easier compared to just seconds before with the engine running. I turn the engine back on and push in the clutch, its sticking, has resistance and is harder to push. I shut the truck off and push in the clutch again a few times, night and day smooth near effortless operation in comparison.

12/21/21 idling at engine operational temperature at a stop light in neutral. No throttle input, no clutch input. Clutch not rattling or making any noise, just the engine sound. A moment passes and the clutch starts rattling like a dual disk. I push the clutch pedal in and release it slowly (still in neutral) and the rattling quiets down.

General operation notes : the trucks rear end jumps and bounces around with this organic single disk even with traction bars when in reverse slipping the clutch. Truck jumps and bounces like a class 8 letting out the clutch into 2nd and 3rd with lots of engagement noise. There is still heavy engagement noise and clunking when letting the clutch out in 1st - 4th. I assume this has something partially to do with the clutch pedal sticking.

I've been trying to get in contact with SBC for two weeks now though email and voice mails, no call backs, no replies. If I call and get ahold of someone using a different area code number I'm going to be pissed because it feels like im being ignored at this point. I understand its the holidays but I'm still out here doing mobile mechanic work fixing other peoples vehicles with a truck that can't get down into 4th; makes dual disk noises despite being single disk and I can't even get a call back or email reply after 2 weeks. Pure Diesel Power sent me a hand signed Christmas card in the mail today from everyone in the office given how much money I've spent there.

I'm going to remove half a quart of fluid returning my fluid volume to aprox. 7 quarts the same as before with the OEM Mopar Luk Single disk organic and see if it helps my shifting any as per recommendation by @bcbender

Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, Stay Safe.

 

[NIsaacs]

Okay, I am going to try to explain some things going on inside a transmission, some I am sure you understand, some you might not.

One of the reasons you had good luck shifting the original clutch/transmission, is because the Syncros were worn with good contact. They are tapered, two piece units. Usually a builder will only replace the brass/fiber part. The other half is steel and is worn some from the old combo. Now they don't exactly match, so they don't grab/resist as good. One half is turning output shaft speed the other half is turning input shaft speed. Their duty is to make both shafts turn the same speed as you push/pull on the stick.

When you push in the clutch, the clutch disk, input shaft and counter shaft all stop....the output shaft is still turning driveshaft speed. Now the Syncros go to work. This is where oil capacity and type come into play. The colder and thicker the oil is, the quicker it will stop the counter shaft, input shaft and clutch disk. The deeper the counter shaft is submerged in oil, the quicker it stops and the harder it is for the Syncros to keep it spinning. The slicker the oil is, is also part of the equation. The Syncros don't grab very good.

The better you become at rpm matching, (timing) the easier the transmission shifts and relies less on the Syncros. To the point, it only takes two fingers to shift. I drove log trucks for 20 years, most with two transmissions and no Syncros at all. Not bragging or looking down my nose, just saying, that the experience trained me in this big ole NV5600 transmission.

Again, I recommend you try the oem recommended Penzoil Synchromesh oil and only fill to the fill plug. I think the oil properties will help the slightly mismatched Syncros, grab better. Similar to motorcycle wet clutch oil. They specify, no oil with the fuel savings symbol, too slick. If it works/helps you, that is cheaper than three clutch's and maybe looking at a fourth, oem type.

 

[bcbender]

oil and only fill to the fill plug.

At a minimum as we discussed, I would pull the fill plug and let it drain until at the OE fill point and try it. Very hard to calculate the volume needed and the FSM is only the range,. only way to get it right spot on is measure what comes out and put exactly that volume back in on a change, I always filled to the OE level, then added 1 qt. Going back to OEM lube may help also, these transmissions are NOT all the same and some like MTF, some dont.

I was going to ask you about SBC, I am surprised they haven't called you since we talked a week or two ago.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Again, I recommend you try the oem recommended Penzoil Synchromesh oil and only fill to the fill plug. I think the oil properties will help the slightly mismatched Syncros, grab better. Similar to motorcycle wet clutch oil. They specify, no oil with the fuel savings symbol, too slick. If it works/helps you, that is cheaper than three clutch's and maybe looking at a fourth, oem type.

Here are my problems:

1. I have unnecessary engagement noise and vibrations i.e. rattling, clunking, squealing and shuddering coming from the bell housing.
2. I can not consistently down shift into 4th and sometimes 3rd gear.
3. The clutch pedal is sticking through its travel and sometimes binding up.

The transmission has 3 new gears: 3rd, 4th, and reverse, new synchro's, and new bearings and seals. I see no reason why changing the oil to Penzoil Synchromesh will change anything when I've been running Amsoil Manual Synchromesh on the OEM clutch without issue. Again STG is an Amsoil dealer, they use it as test fluid and recommend it for their rebuilt units that call for it. While I was there another NV5600 was heading out the door, That customer picked up several quarts of Amsoil Manual Synchromesh for his newly rebuilt trans as per STGs recommendation. Amsoil Manual Synchro Mesh meets spec for this transmission and then some.

I'll drop the oil level to factory and add one quart using the fill hole. If I'm lucky that will cross number 2 off my problem list. I doubt the oil level is going to fix number 1 or number 3. I have a mechanical issue

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Update,

Got ahold of Mansell from SBC today (I had previously been attempting to get ahold of Landon to no avail), gave him the details. He's stumped as well as far as my symptoms go given this is one of their most popular and problem free clutches for these trucks. He's getting in contact with Joaquin from STG about the details of the rebuild. I'm awaiting a follow up call after their correspondence.

My symptoms haven't changed outside of what's been noted thus far. I picked up some MTF oil from @bcbender (Thank you) in prep to change the fluid level, but I'll be waiting to hear back from Mansell and Joaquin about where to go from here before I open the trans up and get in the way of any warranty claims/ violations.

As the truck sits currently is how it left STG in Fort Worth TX.

We recently had a snow day here in the piedmont region of NC, enough to ice out roads and cold start the plow trucks that rarely see the light of day but every few years or so.

I put 50mi on the truck in 4HI on back and main roads filled with ice and slush, No issues with transferase operation or 4x4 function. Didn't get to pull anyone out; not many people were stuck thankfully, Save for a slammed Mustang.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Here are a few videos of my driving conditions. I'll send these off to SBC and STG this coming Monday

1st : If you remember way back in this thread I had installed a Phoenix Friction single disk Kevlar clutch, this was prior to the rebuild. You'll also remember the noise I had and the burn mark on the flywheel and pressure plate were never resolved thanks to Phoenix Frictions "excellent" customer service. This video is with the phoenix friction Kevlar single disk
back in May of 2021.

You'll notice that the speed of the rattle is faster and has a higher pitch than my current one (additional videos below) the "pattern" (not sure if that's the right term, I'm not a sound engineer) is the same, at least to my ears.

2nd : Presently I now have a 1947 OK HD single disk from SBC, this is now after 2 rebuilds on the transmission by STG. These videos were taken yesterday.

First video is from home at my end destination, I mention on that trip I was not able to down shift into 4th gear and that the rattle is variable without a clear trend as to when it happens.

Second video is from my end destination back home part way through I started recording at a stop light when the rattle occurred. I was able to down shift into 4th and 3rd on this trip back while the trans temp and engine temp were the same as the first trip in that the trans did not get above 100* nor did the engine temp hit its normal operation range.

Both the Phoenix Friction rattle and the South Bend Clutch rattle go away when the clutch is pressed in. This is not gear roll over noise. I had a similar rattle on the Phoenix Friction Disk prior to a rebuild and now after a rebuild with a South Bend Clutch Disk.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Update: Follow up from Manseil at SBC, this was his response in an email following a previous one I sent with multiple videos and a write up of my symptoms and the time line of my issue.

"Ok, the video definitely helps me understand the noise issue. The noise your hearing can really only be gear roll over caused by the clutch disc. It will make that with a dual disc but it really should not make any noise with a single disc. That can be fixed with a replacement disc and in this case I would send you everything. On the shifting issue is where I'm lost. You had the same exact issue with the other clutches. I do not know what to say about that. I do honestly think that short throw shifter you have is not helping you. I put one of those in our truck a long time ago and it only made it worse. Sometimes you can get lucky and they work great. So for me it's up to you if you want to install another clutch or not. I cannot make any promises if it will fix all of your issues though. I plan to give you a call in the morning on this. I spent some time on the phone with standard trans and it seems they have done all they can do as well."

On the shifting noise that im hearing in the bell housing:

I have unnecessary engagement noise and vibrations i.e. rattling, clunking, squealing and shuddering coming from the bell housing.

He said that it was "un-natural sounding and that it sounds as if something is loose and not fastened down correctly."

I have received and inspected(for shipping damages) the new clutch kit and flywheel with its corresponding new hardware. I received a labor credit of 200.00. I will be able to send the clutch kit currently installed in my truck into SBC for inspection free of shipping charges. I will have to pull the transmission now for the 6th time on my dime within just over a year period too remove and install a clutch.

I still have no concrete answer as to why or a definitive solution to fix my issues. I have every detail possible documented.

Since both SBC and STG have corresponded about my issues. I'll start by trying to address my shifting issue and removing approx. half a quart of fluid, STG filled it to approx. 7.5 quarts. I had been previously running 7 quarts approx. without issue on the OEM clutch. If my shifting improves then I will take note of its different operating conditions before installing the OEM shifter to see if it changes anything additional(Isolation and observation). This is only addressing my shifting issue. I still have two additional issues left which require removal of the transmission because something is mechanically wrong in the bell housing that neither fluid or a shifter will fix.

Here are my problems:

1. I have unnecessary engagement noise and vibrations i.e. rattling, clunking, squealing and shuddering coming from the bell housing.
2. I can not consistently down shift into 4th and sometimes 3rd gear.
3. The clutch pedal is sticking through its travel and sometimes binding up.

When I plan to remove the transmission is currently unknown. I'm now working full time after graduating in December. I don't have a second vehicle. Manseil is aware of this and has not given me a time limit to send the current clutch in.

 

[Tuesdak]

The noise your hearing can really only be gear roll over caused by the clutch disc. It will make that with a dual disc but it really should not make any noise with a single disc.

On the shifting issue is where I'm lost. You had the same exact issue with the other clutches. I do not know what to say about that.

You are about to waste a lot of money chasing that noise. Can't comment on the volume itself, but, the 1947 OK HD kit did have this noise on mine and drive through windows (reflected noise) did make it louder.

The factory shifter has a rubber noise isolator in it. There be a reason it was there and aftermarket leaves that out.

Sloppy shifting ... I was about to replace the OEM shifter until I discovered the real cause of the slop was the worn bushing on the end of the shifter. Core Shifters sells just that part. Mine was sloppy enough to miss the gates and grab the wrong gear. OR with enough RPM difference refuse to shift to the wrong gear. Real PIA to slap it around in N then try again for the gear I wanted. Night and day difference in grabbing the proper gear - and this is still a slow shifting transmission that will drop into a gear when it damn well feels like it.

Didn't see where in the skimmed video when you couldn't shift into a gear. IMO it may be slopped into another gear. To prove it come to a complete stop holding it there and see if it will ever drop in.

I would put the OEM shifter back on with a new shift bushing and see if you can row the gears better.

 

[AH64ID]

All of this is still with the aftermarket shifter?!?!

 

[BigPapa]

All of this is still with the aftermarket shifter?!?!

Yep, I don’t understand his reluctance to swap the shifter back.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

I don't think we're all on the same page about my issues.

First, I'm not chasing a noise. The clutch housing is making mechanical noises it shouldn't be, there is a problem there. The rattling I'm hearing with the clutch assembly is a noise I shouldn't be hearing. Manseil said this was the case. I know the OEM shifter has a rubber isolator, I know the core shifter does not. I know the reason why it was there. I know the additional sound the the core shifter amplifies from the transmission. I had the Core shifter on the OEM clutch and took note of its differences. The OEM clutch was not rattling away or having shifting issues with the Core shifter installed.

Watch Wes Work did a video on the Hierarchy of Reliability, at the bottom and most reliable are mechanical systems. They give you warning as to when they are not working as they should. I.E. noise outside of nominal operation. You're telling me the noise I'm hearing is nominal and fine and to just put one rubber isolator on the top of the transmission. Manseil is telling me the noise that I'm hearing is not nominal and that something is wrong. He himself is not 100% sure that the OEM shifter alone will fix the noise.

What and where is the noise coming from? Its gear roll over coming from inside the transmission being amplified by the clutch assembly in the bell housing. How many of you are willing to bet that one rubber "coated" isolator is going to quiet the noise being made from the bell housing? It's not going to. Again recounting a third party; I drove to a friends house to drop something off, clutch is rattling away at idle when I get in his drive way. He walks out of the garage asking "Is that your clutch?" I say "Yes, you hear it right?" He says "Yeah, I could hear it inside the house while walking out"

And before anyone chimes in about the depth of the after market shifter protruding into the cup for the bushing. The shifter is built to match OEM depth. It wouldn't fit other wise.

Standard Transmission and Gear weren't confident that the OEM shifter which I brought with me would solve my shifting issue or noise issue. Joaquin: "Its doing the same thing as the other and only isolating some of the noise and vibrations felt in the shifter."

Both shifters have new bushings.

Second, There is no reluctance to swap the OEM shifter back. I'm trying to isolate the cause to have something conclusive to point towards. Lets say on the off chance that the OEM shifter, performs better at shifting than the aftermarket shifter currently does with down shifting into gears.

I have two problems remaining. I have mechanical clunking, shuddering, rattling and engagement noise in the bell housing when there shouldn't be any, and I have a clutch pedal binding in its travel and sticking.

Any suggestions? Other than to pull the transmission and investigate? Or am I wasting my time and money chasing a noise?

Lastly, I had already stated that I wasn't going to touch anything until both SBC and STG had talked to each other about my issue for warranty concerns. Now that they have; I said I would proceed in changing the fluid level, then the shifter in the update post. There is no reluctance in changing it out.

If you know what my problem is then say so. Neither SBC or STG have a definitive answer for me. They both have the same information found in this thread. They both have decades of experience with these transmissions and clutch assemblies. Neither are nailing their hands down on a solution or solutions.

 

[NIsaacs]

Your problem is a non stock clutch, period.

 

[Tuesdak]

I have two problems remaining. I have mechanical clunking, shuddering, rattling and engagement noise in the bell housing when there shouldn't be any, and I have a clutch pedal binding in its travel and sticking.

My apologies: I thought that the noise was the main concern at this point. The aftermarket clutch did make more noise than stock with an OEM shifter. To me the video had the (gear rollover rattle etc.) noise at idle clutch out in N mine had with the SB clutch and it appeared you were also concerned about that at one point in the video. The other noises I may have missed.

A stock clutch would not have held the power mods I did.

The binding and sticking of the clutch pedal, just wow. This is a new problem since the STG visit?

Something is getting overlooked and I am not sure the internet can help as we are not in the seat feeling what is going on or inspecting the parts in person. It didn't help with the missing dowel pin and pulsing on the clutch pedal I had.

 

[BigPapa]

No one here is saying absolutely that the shifter is your problem, but it’s a very simple matter to swap the shifter vs pulling the transmission. What we’re saying, at least for me, is swap it and see if it makes a difference. It’s not hard and it’s not going to cost you anything. If it makes a difference, you’ll know where PART of your problem is. If it doesn’t, you’ll know for certain the shifter isn’t a problem and you can swap it back.

 

[MGreer]

It might have already been asked on here, but did you check the bolts for the pressure plate to make sure they aren't bottoming out before getting to proper torque. I recall with the sbc flywheel they need to be a shorter bolt than oem. If the pressure plate was prevented from proper torque I would think that would cause some noise, vibration and binding. Just thinking out loud.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

The binding and sticking of the clutch pedal, just wow. This is a new problem since the STG visit?

This is a new problem since STG installed the 1947 OK HD in Texas, My 1700mi drive home, and now more than 3K miles of city driving. Its intermittent, While the engine is running there is more resistance in the clutch pedal travel and it binds, enough to jump back up suddenly when it frees interfering with my shifting and timing. While the engine is off there is no binding in the pedal, it moves freely as it normally should with adequate pedal pressure.

The hydraulics are brand new out of the box from SBC installed with the 1947 OK HD in Texas by STG. Same hydro as the last, I kept the previous as a spare backup. System has not been opened, nor will it be.