Instrument Cluster and Interior lights

[Bill Littlefield]

I'm having an intermittent electrical problem with my 2003 3500 with 275,000 miles on it. I'm the original owner. I've been chasing this problem for a while and I need help from someone smarter than me to find the source of the problem and fix it.
It started months ago with temporary and intermittent instrument cluster power loss, or so it seemed. I noticed power would momentarily drop out. Gauges would go to zero and then a ding would be heard as it all powered back up. Initially, it only happened when it was cold/cool. As the truck warmed up, it stopped happening. It happened longer on cold mornings than on warm ones. During the summer, it pretty much stopped happening. When fall came around and temps dropped, it started happening again. A local shop identified the problem as my instrument cluster. P/N no longer available for replacement. I found one of the instrument cluster repair shops and sent the cluster to them for repair. They tested the cluster but couldn't find a specific failure, however, they reflowed all the solder joints that typically cause a problem and it all tested good for them.
I reinstalled the cluster and the problem was still present - No change. The repair shop sent me a list of wire harness pins to test and report voltage values on. Several power leads and ground leads. All tested within specs. However, I'm not sure my meter would catch such a short intermittent power loss. So I uninstalled and sent the cluster back under warranty for more testing and repair. I explained to the repair outlet that it all seemed to be temperature sensitive in nature and would stop once the truck warmed up. They put the instrument cluster in the freezer for a few hours and then retested. They tried other methods to induce the failure but could not cause it to fail. I reinstalled it on return and the problem still persisted.
I've been trying to isolate it and have been doing other trouble shooting. Which has gotten somewhat easier because now the problem persists even when the truck is warm. In the repair manual, in the electrical wiring section 8W-40-11, There is a diagram and it appears that everything in this diagram is potentially affected. At the top it says "Instrument Cluster" and contained within is the Cargo Lamp, Panel Lamps, Courtesy Lamps, Heated Seat Switches, Panel Lamps, Dome Lamp, Glove Box Lamp, Radio, Center High Mount Stop Lamp/Cargo Lamp and A/C - Heater Control. I can confirm that everything listed accept the A/C Heater Control loses power momentarily. And it seems like it might be a capacitor problem because it happens like clockwork every 25 seconds. I have set a lap timer on it and over 10 power loss cycles, they are all within 1/2 second of 25 seconds between power loses. I've attached an image of the page in the wiring diagram manual.
1) It does not seem like a bad ground problem to me.
2) I am not confident the instrument cluster is not the problem. I'm contemplating sourcing another instrument cluster in order to swap out and compare results.
3) I'm not sure my meter would pick up the temporary power loss on any of the wire harness leads. The loss is very shot and the gauges don't even make it to Zero before the power is pack on and things return. It's defiantly momentary.
4) I've looked in the fuse panel and checked all the fuses and cleaned contacts. No change.
5) The engines runs normal and is not affected. The exterior lights are not affected. The power windows and seats are not affected (accept seat heaters). The power outlets in the cab are not affected.
6) The turn signal indicator sound (flasher noise), stops making noise during power loss. But the turn signal light continues to flash. It's just the noise maker that stops.
7) The instrument cluster and other interior elements lose power even when the key is turned on but the truck is not yet started. i.e. while I'm letting the fuel warm up, power is lost intermittently before I turn the key to start position.
If you know how I can find the source of this problem, please let me know. If you know some other tests I can do, please let me know. Any suggestions at all would be appreciated. I'm not a full-time or part-time mechanic, so you might have to dumb it down for me.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Following, I have a similar issue with my cluster needles dropping momentarily, and the check gauge chime going off several times. I intended to send my cluster and TIPM out for a repair before getting into it. Shot in the dark but has the repair company you used for the cluster repair mentioned anything about the TIPM being potentially related?

 

[Bill Littlefield]

Darkbloodmon - No, the repair company didn't mention the TIPM being a potential problem. They were pretty solely focused on the instrument cluster which is what they specialize in. I had asked about some other LEDs on other dash components that have failed to see if they could repair those and they told me they don't work on the other parts, just the cluster. So my guess is they are not knowledgeable outside of their speciality.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Which company did you use for the cluster repair? The one I had in mind for my own cluster and TIPM is Circuit Board Medics. They have a pretty robust automotive offering in addition to appliances. It might be worth giving them a call and asking if they have any experience with Dodge clusters and the issues you're describing. For what its worth they have some great reviews.

 

[Bill Littlefield]

Which company did you use for the cluster repair? The one I had in mind for my own cluster and TIPM is Circuit Board Medics. They have a pretty robust automotive offering in addition to appliances. It might be worth giving them a call and asking if they have any experience with Dodge clusters and the issues you're describing. For what its worth they have some great reviews.

Circuit Board Medics is the one I used. Nice folks. But with no other experience with them, I'm not sure how good they are.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Circuit Board Medics is the one I used. Nice folks. But with no other experience with them, I'm not sure how good they are.

Noted, I was hoping they'd have information beyond just repairing it. Back to square one. TIPM still being a shot in the dark for repair/refurbish. But I'd like for others to chime in if they have any experience with this issue before loading a parts cannon or cutting open a wire harness.

Have you noticed a trend in the occurrence in respect to continuous drive time? My own issue seems to occur more often on longer drives compared to shorter ones. I took a trip to Fort Worth Texas from North Carolina over 1700 miles and my cluster showed similar symptoms to what you've described a multitude of times. My shorter trips and drives back home in NC; its not happened nearly as much.

 

[RogerM]

One of your closing statements stood out. You stated while key is on but not started you see the cluster go dark, could it possibly be a short in the ignition switch itself. Maybe jiggle the key to see if that introduces the intermittent issue? I may be totally off base but just a thought.

 

[Bill Littlefield]

One of your closing statements stood out. You stated while key is on but not started you see the cluster go dark, could it possibly be a short in the ignition switch itself. Maybe jiggle the key to see if that introduces the intermittent issue? I may be totally off base but just a thought.

RogerM - I have wondered this myself if the ignition switch might be part of the problem. I know it is quite warn and it will not stay on in the AC position unless I hold it. I will do some more testing. But since the motor never cuts out and several things outside the cab and a few things inside the cab are not affected, I think it may not be caused by the ignition switch, or at least not the switch alone. However, as stated, I will test this some more.

 

[Bill Littlefield]

Noted, I was hoping they'd have information beyond just repairing it. Back to square one. TIPM still being a shot in the dark for repair/refurbish. But I'd like for others to chime in if they have any experience with this issue before loading a parts cannon or cutting open a wire harness.

Have you noticed a trend in the occurrence in respect to continuous drive time? My own issue seems to occur more often on longer drives compared to shorter ones. I took a trip to Fort Worth Texas from North Carolina over 1700 miles and my cluster showed similar symptoms to what you've described a multitude of times. My shorter trips and drives back home in NC; its not happened nearly as much.

DarkBloodmon - In early Nov, I drove 5 hours and it happened continuously (quite an annoying experience). That was the first time that it didn't stop after the truck reached operating temp inside and outside. However, outside temps were quite cold (below freezing the whole way), so I started to wonder if the cold solder joint theory was still in play but under the hood rather than inside the cab? As mentioned earlier, it now happens all the time and does not seem to quit. We've had some warm temps in Jan, up in the 60s, and I took some test drives for distances of 10 - 20 miles and it would not stop the momentary power losses.

 

[Bill Littlefield]

I spoke to one of the other instrument cluster repair sources, out of FL, yesterday. They were not very helpful in pointing me to a likely source of my problem but insisted that I should send the cluster to them and if there is a problem they will find it and fix it. I'm not convinced that's a good idea yet. I spoke to another repair place today, they listened. The said it doesn't sound like an instrument cluster problem and suggested that I get some other trouble shooting first. I will try to make an appointment with the local dealer(stealer) and maybe they can identify the cause?

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Have you had decent experiences with dealerships in your area before? Are there any local shops that specialize in Dodge trucks or have extensive experience with them? Or potentially an automotive electronics garage?

 

[Bill Littlefield]

Have you had decent experiences with dealerships in your area before? Are there any local shops that specialize in Dodge trucks or have extensive experience with them? Or potentially an automotive electronics garage?

Nope. I've been trying to get an appointment to have our local dealer look at it. No luck. I don't know if it's because of the Covid slow down or what but I can't even get a hold of them to make an appointment. I've emailed. I've chatted with them online. I've left voice messages. No success. I'm about to just drive into town and make the appt. in person! I've had another local shop look. He thought is was the instrument cluster but I'm of the mind now that it is something else.

 

[FOXY005]

My 03 has a similar problem and has had it for quite a while. I will get a single chime and a single flash of 1 or more of the dash cluster warning lights but it will only do it when the outside ambient temperature is cold enough for the grid heaters to stay on after the truck is running. I have noted that the chime and flash will occur at the same time I hit 20 MPH and the grid heaters are automatically turned off. I am therefore guessing it is caused by a spike or drop in voltage as noted on the battery voltage gauge when he grid heaters shut off. I will be watching this thread to see if anyone has the fix to this annoying problem.

 

[CBari]

I too have had some issues with my 03 where it has done this. I also can feel the truck cut out for a split second when driving. I have chased it and finally sent it to local dealership that I have good faith in. They are about 30mins away they scanned tested and drove and never had a problem. I thought it was more pronounced when the truck was cold, but have noticed it at all times also. Service manager gave me a theory that I am beginning to think might be right. He new the truck wasn't my daily driver and that it sets for a while. He thinks the batteries are drained just a little and that till they are fully charged the system is seeing minor voltage drop which is causing the issues. Truck set for the whole month of January and when I started it and took a 2 hour drive the first 30 mins were awful lots of the cutting out. Parked truck at airport for 5 days and had the same issues when I returned and started home. Drove truck everyday for the next week and never had an issue. Don't know if this helps but something else to look at. By the way I haven't checked my battery cables or my frame grounds.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

I too have had some issues with my 03 where it has done this. I also can feel the truck cut out for a split second when driving. I have chased it and finally sent it to local dealership that I have good faith in. They are about 30mins away they scanned tested and drove and never had a problem. I thought it was more pronounced when the truck was cold, but have noticed it at all times also. Service manager gave me a theory that I am beginning to think might be right. He new the truck wasn't my daily driver and that it sets for a while. He thinks the batteries are drained just a little and that till they are fully charged the system is seeing minor voltage drop which is causing the issues. Truck set for the whole month of January and when I started it and took a 2 hour drive the first 30 mins were awful lots of the cutting out. Parked truck at airport for 5 days and had the same issues when I returned and started home. Drove truck everyday for the next week and never had an issue. Don't know if this helps but something else to look at. By the way I haven't checked my battery cables or my frame grounds.

Just throwing my circumstance out here, On my 03 I installed a new battery cable set from Genos, and a new Remy alternator, all grounds were cleaned prior to new cable installation, my batteries are lead acid from 2017 but still in good health and topped off last I checked prior to winter. I have this issue hot or cold and its my daily driver.

I don't intend on changing my batteries anytime soon hopefully, but for me its the last thing in my charging system that hasn't changed. I'll follow up if it ever comes to bear that I get new batteries and if my conditions improve.

 

[Topzide]

From what has been described, sounds like it's a ground/contact issue. @Bill Littlefield, I would take a digital meter and check the ohm value on the grounds. High resistance on these connection can cause issues. I would check out the ignition switch for excess play, I know on small equipment (lawn and garden), a key switch with excess play causes a lot of starting/ charging issues. Cold solder joints can make you pull your hair out! When temps are cold they can be open but if there's a lot of current flowing through the joint, it could be open also. I've been in many a circuit broad tracing down intermittent issues! Back in the day when doing sound productions, The worst time was right before sound check and having to open up an amp to get running for the show! Carried a tackle box full of the components and supplies to due field repairs. Worst part was not having all the test equipment with me! A DVM was about the only test equipment we carried with us as everything was check before loading for the show. I'm not ruling out that the cluster doesn't have an issue as my FIL had a 2011 that he had the cluster replaced. He ordered one from Dodge and as far as I know, no further issues as it was working when he sold the truck. Good luck on this and will monitor thread to see what shakes out.

 

[Bill Littlefield]

Nope. I've been trying to get an appointment to have our local dealer look at it. No luck. I don't know if it's because of the Covid slow down or what but I can't even get a hold of them to make an appointment. I've emailed. I've chatted with them online. I've left voice messages. No success. I'm about to just drive into town and make the appt. in person! I've had another local shop look. He thought is was the instrument cluster but I'm of the mind now that it is something else.

I now have an appointment with the local dealer to see if I can get an accurate diagnosis for the cause. But it's not until the last week of March.

 

[Bill Littlefield]

@Topzide - I will check the grounds again, more carefully. However, because the problem happens consistently now at 25 second intervals, I'm doubting that it is a ground. I'm also thinking, based on studying the diagram above that I posted, that there is something in connector 3 dropping out. It would appear that all the things that have problems are coming through that connection. So I think I will pull the instrument cluster again (4th time!) and test power and ground wires with the voltage meter to see if there is any inconsistency. And since now I know it will act up when the key is turned to the "on" position before I turn it to start, I should be able to get some good readings to rule things out or find a failure. My ignition switch does have some extra play as the truck has more than a few miles on it. If it wasn't so expensive, I would just change that out to eliminate it but for what they charge for that and keys, it will almost bankrupt me. So, I'd like to be a little more sure. I will fiddle with the switch and see if I can get the behavior to change. Might get lucky.

 

[Topzide]

@Bill Littlefield, The ignition switch is separate from the key portion. You need to check and see if it's the switch or the key cylinder that is loose. Replacement switch thru Rockauto is under $20 and the lock cylinder should be able to have new wafers put in to help with the slop thus keeping the same key. When I worked with Toyota, we were able to re-key a new cylinder to the vehicle key. Just wanted to through that out there. I hope that when you recheck connections, you'll find something that provides that aha moment!

 

[Bill Littlefield]

@Bill Littlefield, The ignition switch is separate from the key portion. You need to check and see if it's the switch or the key cylinder that is loose. Replacement switch thru Rockauto is under $20 and the lock cylinder should be able to have new wafers put in to help with the slop thus keeping the same key. When I worked with Toyota, we were able to re-key a new cylinder to the vehicle key. Just wanted to through that out there. I hope that when you recheck connections, you'll find something that provides that aha moment!

Topzide - Thanks for that info. It's helpful and I'll certainly be looking into those.