Cummins or Hurricane?

[Tuesdak]

Diesel and Manual transmissions are also more popular elsewhere. So are mopeds. A HD (pickup) class vehicle delivers mopeds and electric golf carts in the middle of the night: not the other way around.

One HD vehicle has already suffered this Small Displacement fate: Vans. Long time ago Vans had anemic "Can't get out of their own way" 6.2/6.5TD Diesel engines with 200 HP or less engines in them. P30 potato chip delivery vehicles with ~100 HP NA diesels. What an unpleasant get out and walk faster passed by a bicycle drive.

For a time you could get a 2500 van with a de-tuned Duramax and so-so 4L80E transmission shoved behind it.

Today GM has a 4 banger turbo in a 2500 Van that makes less power and TQ than the forgotten IDI 6.5TD did. Standard the 4.3L V6 gas engine and for a saving grace a optional non-AFM 6.0L V8. They no longer make 1500 (1/2 ton) vans. Yes, the same wrist pin busting 4 banger they put in the Colorado 'smaller' pickups they shove in a 3/4 ton van.

For 1/2 tons...

The rest of the world does NOT have our wealth, strict emissions laws, regulations for crashes, cheap fuel, CAFE, customer desire for a comfortable vehicle, DISTANCES of large open roads: some of our States are larger than said countries.

It takes a Wal-Mart parking lot here to resemble driving in Vietnam.

If our Laws and Government interference were "different" Full Size (1970's size) Station Wagons would still rule the road instead of Crew Cab Pickups with needed legroom for FOUR or More ADULTS. Aka ADULTS in the back seat not kids under 12.

After uncomfortable seating for 6 people you need a SUV with a 3rd row or a passenger van. Some families here need 15 passenger vans to get around. Used to be they were all shoved in a Station Wagon before seatbelts were a thing.

We generally lack public transportation, short distances between buildings of overcrowded non-stop metro areas...

Extra expense for plates/insurance/parking for more than one "does it all" vehicle is a concern for "US" not Government.

Ya im sure Ram did no market testing, will go bankrupt from this and then we will all be driving Fords and Chevys.............

Emissions requirements trump: Driveability, reliability, and MPG. Last I checked CAFE doesn't apply to towing so that "compromise" of a big block low RPM gasoline engine including a Big I6 doing better when loaded like HD use of towing is no longer a consideration. Large Displacement heavy engines are a weight penalty vs. small displacement turbo when testing the unloaded configuration for CAFE and/or emissions.

So yeah they likely tested it or are we their R&D? Clearly the compromises made are due to laws not a preference to offer a gasoline engine that gets the best MPG "loaded" in a HD platform. CAFE and/or Emissions credits win and why not use one engine production line in everything you can?

The Disaster of the "Early Emissions" 2007-2013 Non-DEF Cummins Pickups be "Where is My MPG?!" and "Choke to death on soot for NOx control: Reliability?" ... well tested and ready for production sarcasm I will throw back at you. Point of fact I was better off driving a 2008 Chevy Duramax vs. the 'emissions requirements met early' Dodge RAM we looked at in 2008 hindsight being 20-20. Just one example of many powertrain disasters turned loose on the public with one exception that makes this example notable: the MPG reduction suffered to meet the NOx laws without DEF. (Or cheating like VW demonstrated with better MPG by ignoring NOx laws...) In one way this was Government EPA backing OEM's into a corner by not allowing the use of DEF for their "line in the sand NOx rules".

Do we owe Dodge/Cummins/RAM our respect for the DEF use being allowed by the EPA now due to them proving it was impossible to relibily meet the ~2013 emissions without DEF?

 

[AEdelheit]

Bud I don't have the time to read novels about station wagons and all the tangents you seem to put into responses out of what can only assume boredom, clearly you think this is a terrible idea and the world is ending, Im excited to see where it goes so we can agree to disagree.

Have a great day....

 

[Badunit]

https://s3.amazonaws.com/chryslerme...T022_069EPh7vignpo2t6lhod1h383k2hm0q__mid.jpg

Is there an engine under all that mess in the photo? I can't even tell from the photo if it is really an inline 6 vs a v6 or if there is an engine block there at all. If I was inclined to get a complicated mess like that I would be driving a Ford with a Powerstroke.

 

[SnoKing]

I had a 2020 Ford Edge ST with the twin turbo 2.7L and you could not see the ground anywhere around the engine. To hook up a battery maintainer I had to run the power cable out the gap in the hook/fender joint.

It was a kick to drive however.

 

[Timd32]

I'm holding out for the Tornado.

The Hurricane is an old Willys Motor built in the 50's, there were rumors of them using the Tornado name. Those were built from 1961 to maybe 1970, 71.

The Hurricane was a 226 straight 6, the Tornado was also a straight 6 but ahead of its time was a Single Overhead Cam, 6 lobes for the 12 valves. Intake and Exhaust shared a lobe. Very cool motors, the 226 was a work horse as well.

The base for the Hurricane the 226 was used in forklifts, generators, pumps, trucks, wagons, all sorts of applications, most of that was under the Continental they were pretty similar, to the Jeep Willys 226.

The Hurricane name I did not see coming, the Tornado was pushed around several forums and leaked a few times, they did a good job on marketing to kinda hide that name, Im sure it was leaked and someone posted it prior, I could have missed it.

I have a few Tornado's. Up to six now.

They were also used in the Kaiser M715 and the early J series trucks.

So it's only a matter of time before they upgrade the Hurricane to a Tornado.

I'm holding out for that.

Either way it's just another truck Motor, they will come and go in a few years the next big thing will arrive, it's not a "HEMI" changing event, that was pretty iconic when the brought that name and marketing back from the old engines.

Still cool to see them using these older names.

 

[seafish]

IMO there needs to be a 5th choice on the poll--

No -- I'd need to see some real world results as far as reliability and longevity are concerned.

 

[Ozymandias]

By the way I've nowhere read that the hurricane is ment to replace the Cummins. So the question is hypothetical.
Can the Hurricane replace the Hemi would be it.
And yeah, it will be a great replacement for the famous Hemi. Turbo and low end torque is hard to beat.

 

[KCJackson1]

By the way I've nowhere read that the hurricane is ment to replace the Cummins. So the question is hypothetical.
Can the Hurricane replace the Hemi would be it.
And yeah, it will be a great replacement for the famous Hemi. Turbo and low end torque is hard to beat.

My point in asking the question is simply this... would the Hurricane meet your needs and thus present a viable option against the Cummins? Not everyone needs 4 digits of torque, but if the only alternative (6.4) won't do the job, then it's not a choice. No, the HO Hurricane won't match the sheer output, but solid steady torque at 2350 rpm is better than a true peak at 4000. My 05 dually had the 325/610 Cummins 5.9, and I never felt it was underpowered for what I did with the truck. I would give the Hurricane a fair judgement before ordering a new truck.

 

[Ozymandias]

Absolutely, like I said above. It will be a great replacement for the Hemi as with the Turbo you finally get some low end torque to a gasser that otherwise isn't there. If one isn't running a trailer all the time in my opinion he should consider that. Also price wise the 10k gap between the gasser and the Cummins will stay I guess. 10k buys a lot of additional fuel considering a difference of maybe 3-5 mpg average used as a grocery getter.

 

[SSage]

I really don't like the lower torque, I rather have the low rpm pull of a diesel. I only use my truck for hauling and towing. My old 12 valve has lots of mods, I can tell a big difference in pulling power compared to my old 305 HO whish is almost stock. That modified 160 hp engine is really strong with mods for 400 hp, I'm guessing at least 900 in torque, but I never dynoed it. That old 12 valve pulls 18K surprisingly well, wish it had 13 speed fuller gearing though. The torque gets the job done.

 

[bcbender]

My 05 dually had the 325/610 Cummins 5.9, and I never felt it was underpowered

Agreed, but not a lot of people left them that way.. Most people buying the 6.7 trucks I suspect are not as concerned about the cost of the engine, I for one was not and was only interested in the HO,.. and my 04 (305/555) was no where near that when I sold it, closer to the 12' HO (350/800) work truck we have.

 

[crispyboy]

Timd32,
Loved the Tornado engine. I learned to drive a 1964 Jeep J200 truck at age 9 - with 3 on the tree. Had to double clutch for first gear since that gear wasn't synchronized. Good memories with my dad teaching me to drive it on the farm.

 

[Timd32]

Timd32,
Loved the Tornado engine. I learned to drive a 1964 Jeep J200 truck at age 9 - with 3 on the tree. Had to double clutch for first gear since that gear wasn't synchronized. Good memories with my dad teaching me to drive it on the farm.

That's awesome.

Yeah I've never driven one, but I have 4 complete engines, one partially disassembled, and one in a running wagon that's in process.

I finally found a 63 wagon to go with it. Trying to get it picked up west of Denver. I finally found a guy who can get it to MO for me, that's half way.

So will be doing s road trip here week of the 18th from NJ, to MI, to MO and reverse that.

Plan is to get this thing tuned up, brakes done and drive to East of Cleveland for May 21st for a Jeep show.

It's such a crazy plan I might pull it off.

Will see how my '18 2500 6.4 gasser does on the trip.

 

[crispyboy]

I remember my father bought a wrecked 1965 2wd Wagoneer to rob a few parts off for our truck. As a kid is we took the brake system off the Wagoneer and put them on the J200. They must have been larger diameter or something because it helped stop the truck better. 4 wheel drum brakes weren't much so any little bit helped.
BTW - I have a painted 3 piece front bumper for that era of Jeep truck or Wagoneer if you know of anyone interested.

 

[Timd32]

I remember my father bought a wrecked 1965 2wd Wagoneer to rob a few parts off for our truck. As a kid is we took the brake system off the Wagoneer and put them on the J200. They must have been larger diameter or something because it helped stop the truck better. 4 wheel drum brakes weren't much so any little bit helped.
BTW - I have a painted 3 piece front bumper for that era of Jeep truck or Wagoneer if you know of anyone interested.

If you shoot me PM with a pic I can post it up on the other Forum if you wanted it out there.

Also a rough price, there are some folks with the J trucks on there.

The Willys bumpers are like $50-$100 upto $800 for a WO script with new chrome.

My guess is you had 9" drums and the newer stuff was 11", that's typically what I see guys doing. Short on hands on for that mod.

I see we have succeeded in derailing this thread, it happens. Sorry OP.

 

[Tuesdak]

Bud I don't have the time to read novels about station wagons and all the tangents you seem to put into responses out of what can only assume boredom, clearly you think this is a terrible idea and the world is ending, Im excited to see where it goes so we can agree to disagree.

Have a great day....

I predict HD fleet sales segment for RAM will keep the Hemi or offer a 87 octane version of this engine. Wouldn't be the end of the world as fleets would simply choose other OEM's for HD trucks that do not require more expensive fuel. The high cost of Diesel fuel and TCO is getting gasoline engines closer to them all the way around.

I respect your perspective esp. lower fuel price spread on gasoline. No reason you can't return the favor.

 

[KCJackson1]

Production Hurricane specs were announced at the New York Auto Show with the 2023 Wagoneer L and Grand Wagoneer L introduction. These may only be the output numbers for the Wags - the other cars and trucks slated to receive them may be different.

Standard output Hurricane, standard on all Wagoneer L models:
420 hp @ 5200 rpm
468 lb-ft @ 3500 rpm
5800 rpm redline
89 octane recommended, 87 octane acceptable
Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 0W-20 factory fill
Preliminary EPA estimates: 17 city, 23 highway, 19 combined (4x2), 16 city, 22 highway, 19 combined (4x4)
(5.7L ratings: 16/22/18 (4x2), 15/20/17 (4x4))

High output Hurricane, standard on all Grand Wagoneer L models:
510 hp @ 5700 rpm
500 lb-ft @ 3500 rpm
6100 rpm redline
91 octane required
Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 0W-40 factory fill
Preliminary EPA estimates: 14 city, 19 highway, 16 combined (4x4)
(6.4L ratings: 13/19/15 (4x2), 13/18/15 (4x4) - no 4x2 L version)

Both engines are still putting out the twist at the hp peak... 424 lb-ft @ 5200 for the SO, 470 lb-ft @ 5700 for the HO. A 3.55 pumpkin is standard with the SO and 3.92 is optional for the SO, standard for the HO. The Wag/Grand Wag L comes with a 30.5 gallon tank.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Little late to the thread but I'm not interested at all in a GDI Twin Turbo engine with that amount of plastic apart of the engine.

Just glanced over some tech specs for it and I had to dig to find out it was a GDI, they mentioned a special cylinder coating I assume is to help with soot build up and oil dispersion. Waiting to see how that works out....

The heat soak is going to destroy those plastic components with that temps that engine will be seeing. I just towed a 15' Hyundai Sonata I4 GDI, Second owner got it at 70K mi, Put 20K on it, it needed an oil change soon according to him but it burned up and went dry merging onto a highway. Nothing on the dipstick but oil stained into it. Oil cap had a burnt smell to it. Granted damage was done by the previous owners oil type and change interval but still the GDI engines are way to oil sensitive for people who don't invest in proper maintenance. Quoting a statistic I heard somewhere in a topic about cars; "of American car owners only 25% of them properly maintain their vehicles at or above factory maint." standards.

I'll be waiting for the recalls.... GDI engine designs were the cart before the horse, when they first dropped there wasn't oil designed around the harsher, hotter, and dirtier conditions those engines were seeing. The GF 6 oil spec only came out two years ago. GDI's have been in cars nearing a decade or more for some mfgs.

 

[Tuesdak]

@Darkbloodmon the oil spec is also for the low speed ping problem DI engines have.

Looked at one of the new Station Wagons, err SUV Grand Wagoneer, that is now on dealer lots. I was excited they brought those back. Glad the GM Suburbans and them have the big letters on the back so I can tell the two apart. Aside of the look alike I quickly lost interest with the “$96,000.00” in big numbers on the windshield. Yeah you can spend this much on a Cummins pickup, but, ouch!

 

[Darkbloodmon]

“$96,000.00” in big numbers on the windshield

Didn't know they were going that high, must be why I've seen a very select (pinky extension) handful of them on the road. Is the Wagoneer going to be the first vehicle on the roads with the Hurricane or are there already other existing models with it? Sorry If I missed it in earlier posts reading through now.