Blackstone Oil report questions

[garyp285]

My oil was about 2 qts high when I changed it, and the report doesn't seem to find the exact problem.
I was wondering if any of you experts could shed some light on this report. Thanks for any advice.

 

[AH64ID]

Personally I’ve never been impressed with Blackstone.

TBN isn’t included, which is very important on a UOA.

Viscosity is low, especially for the mileage, but fuel dilution isn’t high… thou a less than sign indicates it’s an estimate and not an actual reading.

As far as the oil level being high, the distance between add and full is 2qts. Are you saying the oil level is low as high above the full mark as the low mark is below the full? On a level surface overnight?

 

[Cummins12V98]

Personally I like Blackstone. Check the box if you want TBN. I think their report is easy to read compared to some.

I have taken a personal tour of their facility. Very nice competent people.

My friend just went 22K using AMZ/OIL and their filter. Blackstone said try 24k next time. He had 1% fuel dilution. His truck is a 13 six speed with 170k.

 

[garyp285]

Thanks John, it was showing 1/2" over the full mark on the dipstick from where it was when I did the last oil change. The antifreeze is still full so hopefully not a head gasket.

 

[AH64ID]

Thanks John, it was showing 1/2" over the full mark on the dipstick from where it was when I did the last oil change. The antifreeze is still full so hopefully not a head gasket.

One trick for fuel is to put a drop of the oil from the dipstick on a paper towel. As it spreads the fuel will travel further and leave a brown ring outside the oil stain.

1/2" isn't horrible, if its from the same attitude and temperature.

 

[Tuesdak]

Hot/Cold expands the oil about 1 quart on the dipstick as well as filter drainback ... This is a difficult engine to get a steady oil level on. 3 gal on an oil change overfills it and my dealer gave it back to me reading over full twice. I have lowered the oil level on mine to read full and it stays there - 30 min after hot shutdown level surface. I took out around 2 quarts to lower it. Getting readings on the steel cable part of the dipstick is simply way over. It hasn't moved from "full" where I lowered the level too.

The loss of viscosity suggests fuel. It's sheered down to a 30 weight hot or fuel diluted. Lucas oil additive is mentioned in the report, so, what are you running?

I have had high oil levels and loss of viscosity due to BioDiesel, B99, use in the past on another DPF Diesel. My oil lab isn't able to detect BioDiesel in the engine oil: #2 diesel evaporates back out, BioDiesel doesn't. This is just one reason you have to change your oil more often with high % of bio use. Anything over 5% BioDiesel is considered over what the OEM allows in the owner's manual.

 

[garyp285]

I haven't use an additive and don't know why they mentioned Lucas, but maybe I should start. Thanks for the info on Bio Diesel.

 

[Tuesdak]

I haven't use an additive and don't know why they mentioned Lucas, but maybe I should start. Thanks for the info on Bio Diesel.

No need to run any additive. I would ask the lab to clarify their comments. Maybe even resample it if they got yours confused with one running Lucas.

Watch the pumps to see if the ones you use have a label stating higher % of Biodiesel.

 

[sag2]

I might question the results. The viscosity suggests dilution, but the fuel dilution does not support it. Also if it was 1/2" over the safe line after 9k that would not bother me in the least. I run mine an average of 12-14k between changes and it is usually above the safe mark when I change it. I hardly ever check the oil level between changes because it has never used any oil between changes, and more than likely never will.

 

[Newsa]

Got an oil report with viscosity at 12.7 cSt @100°C and 4.09 TBN. I assume if there is fuel dilution, that would also affect the TBN because it dilutes the additive package in addition to reducing viscosity

I'm planning to wait until after a 2000 mile trip and 2 months to change the oil and filters. I could change it now, but don't see the need, unless these concerns show a need. That's why I am asking the forum.

Metals are all good. No evidence of fuel dilution except the oil level is climbing the dipstick a bit. The oil report says zero fuel dilution.

Is 12.7 cSt viscosity and TBN 4.09 a reason to change now? Or should I wait?

I suspect there is fuel dilution causing the 12.7 cSt viscosity, even though the report tested fuel dilution and says 0 fuel dilution. 8000+ miles and 10 months on the current sump of oil. Not under warranty, so not worried about the 6 month interval. Running Amsoil Dominator. The UOA is from oil analyzers, not Blackstone.

 

[brucejohnson]

Got an oil report with viscosity at 12.7 cSt @100°C and 4.09 TBN. I assume if there is fuel dilution, that would also affect the TBN because it dilutes the additive package in addition to reducing viscosity

I'm planning to wait until after a 2000 mile trip and 2 months to change the oil and filters. I could change it now, but don't see the need, unless these concerns show a need. That's why I am asking the forum.

Metals are all good. No evidence of fuel dilution except the oil level is climbing the dipstick a bit. The oil report says zero fuel dilution.

Is 12.7 cSt viscosity and TBN 4.09 a reason to change now? Or should I wait?

I suspect there is fuel dilution causing the 12.7 cSt viscosity, even though the report tested fuel dilution and says 0 fuel dilution. 8000+ miles and 10 months on the current sump of oil. Not under warranty, so not worried about the 6 month interval. Running Amsoil Dominator. The UOA is from oil analyzers, not Blackstone.

Newsa,
Do you have previous reports to compare for your truck? What oil viscosity are you running? The only Dominator oil I found on the Amsoil for diesels on the Amsoil website shows 20W-50. Data sheet had cSt viscosity of 18.5. So a comparison with other like oil samples would be more helpful.
You may be good to go. Here is what my 2020 had on its first oil change @ 7,700 miles / 1 year - white column (early change on factory fill). Plenty of room to spare on the factory 10W-30 for the newer trucks according to the "range" column in gray. Blackstone report.
My 02 was a little different

02 results 7,000 - 9,500 miles over several year period...Note viscosity difference from the 2020 with the lighter weight oil. These all had some long trips towing 9,000 pound travel trailer, up and down some hefty grades, mostly in hot (>100*) weather. Shell Rotella or Pennzoil 15W-40.

 

[Newsa]

Newsa,
Do you have previous reports to compare for your truck? What oil viscosity are you running? The only Dominator oil I found on the Amsoil for diesels on the Amsoil website shows 20W-50. Data sheet had cSt viscosity of 18.5. So a comparison with other like oil samples would be more helpful.
You may be good to go. Here is what my 2020 had on its first oil change @ 7,700 miles / 1 year - white column (early change on factory fill). Plenty of room to spare on the factory 10W-30 for the newer trucks according to the "range" column in gray. Blackstone report.
My 02 was a little different

View attachment 133783

02 results 7,000 - 9,500 miles over several year period...Note viscosity difference from the 2020 with the lighter weight oil. These all had some long trips towing 9,000 pound travel trailer, up and down some hefty grades, mostly in hot (>100*) weather. Shell Rotella or Pennzoil 15W-40.

View attachment 133784

Bruce, thanks for the reply. I am attaching some history, and I realize I was mistaken about 0 fuel dilution, when I opened the pdf on my phone without downloading it, the numbers didn't line up with the columns. So my mistake in reading 0 fuel dilution was actually 0 lube added (from 2 columns to the left).

I have somehow had a communication problem with the company doing the UOA. They seem to think all my oil submissions are baseline unused oil. With 8027 miles on the lube, it is obviously nor a fresh sample. This time I entered the data on my phone on their app and maybe I wasn't able to remove a baseline (fresh unused oil) on the app.

If you notice, the current lube analyzed is #8. #4-7 are also there as history. #8 does not have a value for fuel dilution. Maybe it was inconclusive? However #6 is from a fresh bottle (unused oil) of Redline 15w40.

The reason I tested the redline as a baseline was because I suspected some of the oxidation in submission #4 with 8000+ miles was because redline tests oxidized even when fresh from the bottle.

On a side note, UOA #3 which is not shown here had 8.4% dilution (on about 4000 miles. I suspect that was because it went through several active Regensburg.

Back to UOA #8 which is shown here. I am using Amsoil Dominator 20w 50. I have taken flack here before for using 20w 50. That's why I didn't originally put it here. I thought with a bit of fuel dilution that I have seen, I might be able to safely run the oil beyond 6 months for the first time. I do have an amsoil bypass filter installed which they claim is good for 60k, but I change it every 8k-10k. I changed both filters and immediately changed the oil when I got the UOA showing 8.4% fuel dilution.
I have some redline 15w 40 in the shed, and have decided to go back to redline after using Amsoil Dominator for a couple of years. We will be moving out of state in 2023 so, I will use up what is in the shed so I don't have to pack it and move it.

As for Amsoil Dominator 20w 50, I know that it is too viscous. But having lived abroad, I noticed that 15w 40 is not available in some developing countries, and they use 20w 50 in miami-type weather even if 15w 40 is called for.

 

[gtwitch]

I used Oil sample testing for about 5 years , about 15 years ago and then found no reason to continue on my 99 2500 which now has over 250K on it and I have a "new to me" 2017 2500 and with now 40K on it I carefully watch the oil level and touch viscosity. From the second oil change on my 99 and now with the newer truck , my experience has told me to fill to halfway between Add and Full ( about 10 QT ) at oil change and monitor this level monthly or more often. The 99 at its mileage will require one quart added at about 4k and another if I run it to 10 k but usually change at a point that is down to add again at about 8k. The newer truck will not require adding any oil to at least 8k and so far I have never had to add oil here. I use 15W-40 T6 Rotella in the 99 and 5W-40 T6 in the newer truck. I will probably look at oil sample testing on the trucks sometime in the future but who knows. Just my experience here after about 20 years in a Cummins TD.
gtwitch in wyoming

 

[Newsa]

I noticed copper is a bit high in the above sample results. I understand that copper sources could be bearings or oil cooler leaching. However, if it were either oil cooler leaching or bearing wear, there would also likely need to be more than one elevated metal because the entire engine is composed of alloys, not pure elemental metals. The bearings are not pure copper, some of them are alloys of copper, nickel, and other metals. Likewise, the oil cooler is not pure copper, however copper might be the most soluble and ionizable metal of the alloys that the oil cooler is made of. But generally, this also could just be a data outlier.

 

[brucejohnson]

On a side note, UOA #3 which is not shown here had 8.4% dilution (on about 4000 miles. I suspect that was because it went through several active Regensburg.

If I am not mistaken, the regeneration does not add fuel to the cylinder combustion process, but is injected in the exhaust stream, post turbocharger, pre-DPF filter to "oxidize" the filtered particulate matter to a finer, relatively safer ash state, as well as produce a metallic high heat smell while in operation, and a walloping decrease in displayed fuel economy, therefore no chance of diluting the crankcase oil with fuel.
Also noted was the "Lube Changed" and "Fuel Filter Changed" showing "No" on lines 7 & 8, inferring sampling oil without changing oil and filters for the (added) period/miles reported on the sample. (Ongoing, continuous samples on the existing oil change). Still, not a reason NOT to perform/log a Fuel Dilution entry.
I would have interest piqued on the metals that turned up higher than normal though.
With the new info you have provided "I" would go ahead and change the oil with your selected brand meeting the factory specs and submit a properly annotated sample of the current crankcase contents to your preferred testing lab (I personally like Blackstone).

The higher viscosity in the past or overseas took into consideration the greater clearances (less accurate, or designed for less friction working those tiny engines to produce their max potential HP/Torque) in manufacturing/machining and wear over time just to keep things running hopefully using less oil or extending the inevitable rebuild. (whew!)

Eons ago I tried to run some Gulf Racing 50W in my 65 Mustang 289HP (not 271HP, but factory 325-350HP, one of 50 built - but that's a different story) just to tame the solid lifter racket. That it did, but had too many disadvantages like, slowed the ultra-quick RPM advance at full throttle, top end speed took significantly longer to achieve, daily driving fuel economy suffered 20+%, and it took a bigger chunk out of the wallet @ 25 cents per quart more than the standard premium Gulf 30W oil. I went back to Gulf or Valvoline after that and put up with the nuts in a tin can rattle noise (unless it was romped on when the sweet music of exhaust and intake over-powered the tin-can-rattle.

I actually ran full synthetic in my 98.5 and 2005. I started full synthetic in my previously loved 2002 for the first several years. I began oil sampling to see how things looked. It showed fantastic results. Out of curiosity, and a desire to economize a bit, I thought I would try good old standard dino oil. The figures came back with room to spare on all data, even when I worked the dickens out of the engine. Oil has definitely improved over the past decade or two. So I continued with dino oil with oil samples for 16 more years, 200,000+ on the 02. I broke down in 2020 and traded the 02, not due to the engine, but everything else that seemed to be no longer serviced and no such parts readily available, and was significantly nickel and diming the coffers of retirement. That 5.9 was still going strong, no oil consumption or unusual noises, always starting and taking on any heavy-duty task presented at any moment in time.

 

[Newsa]

If I am not mistaken, the regeneration does not add fuel to the cylinder combustion process, but is injected in the DPF filter to "cook" the filtered particulate matter to a finer, relatively safer ash state, as well as produce a metallic high heat smell while in operation, and a walloping decrease in displayed fuel economy, therefore no chance of diluting the crankcase oil with fuel.
Also noted was the "Lube Changed" and "Fuel Filter Changed" showing "No" on lines 7 & 8, inferring sampling oil without changing oil and filters for the (added) period/miles reported on the sample. (Ongoing, continuous samples on the existing oil change). Still, not a reason NOT to perform/log a Fuel Dilution entry.
I would have interest piqued on the metals that turned up higher than normal though.
With the new info you have provided "I" would go ahead and change the oil with your selected brand meeting the factory specs and submit a properly annotated sample of the current crankcase contents to your preferred testing lab (I personally like Blackstone).

The higher viscosity in the past or overseas took into consideration the greater clearances (less accurate, or designed for less friction working those tiny engines to produce their max potential HP/Torque) in manufacturing/machining and wear over time just to keep things running hopefully using less oil or extending the inevitable rebuild. (whew!)

Eons ago I tried to run some Gulf Racing 50W in my 65 Mustang 289HP (not 271HP, but factory 325-350HP, one of 50 built - but that's a different story) just to tame the solid lifter racket. That it did, but had too many disadvantages like, slowed the ultra-quick RPM advance at full throttle, top end speed took significantly longer to achieve, daily driving fuel economy suffered 20+%, and it took a bigger chunk out of the wallet @ 25 cents per quart more than the standard premium Gulf 30W oil. I went back to Gulf or Valvoline after that and put up with the nuts in a tin can rattle noise (unless it was romped on when the sweet music of exhaust and intake over-powered the tin-can-rattle.

I actually ran full synthetic in my 98.5 and 2005. I started full synthetic in my previously loved 2002 for the first several years. I began oil sampling to see how things looked. It showed fantastic results. Out of curiosity, and a desire to economize a bit, I thought I would try good old standard dino oil. The figures came back with room to spare on all data, even when I worked the dickens out of the engine. Oil has definitely improved over the past decade or two. So I continued with dino oil with oil samples for 16 more years, 200,000+ on the 02. I broke down in 2020 and traded the 02, not due to the engine, but everything else that seemed to be no longer serviced and no such parts readily available, and was significantly nickel and diming the coffers of retirement. That 5.9 was still going strong, no oil consumption or unusual noises, always starting and taking on any heavy-duty task presented at any moment in time.

Bruce,

Thanks for the reply. But this source says fuel is injected from the injectors in the engine at the end of the power/combustion stroke and/or during the exhaust stroke.

https://www.dieselhub.com/cummins/6.7-cummins-emissions-equipment.html

 

[AH64ID]

This generation truck does an active regen at least every 24 engine run hours, more in certain uses. Fuel dilution is not an issue on this generation of trucks. I had around 19 regens on my last oil change and the oil level never changed. You have something else going on for all the fuel dilution. Do you cold idle a lot?

The dominator has sheared down almost to a 30wt, that’s not good. It’s lost nearly 6 cSt from new, Cummins states the max you should see before changing to oil is 5.

It’s been mentioned before, but I would try a different oil. Use a 15w-40 designed for all the emissions stuff and see how it does.

 

[brucejohnson]

Bruce,

Thanks for the reply. But this source says fuel is injected from the injectors in the engine at the end of the power/combustion stroke and/or during the exhaust stroke.

https://www.dieselhub.com/cummins/6.7-cummins-emissions-equipment.html

Here is a great overview by Cummins on the Aftertreatment System operation. The video depicts the processes well.

How an Aftertreatment System Works | Cummins Inc.

 

[Newsa]

I hadn't responded to Bruce's comments about why I said zero lube added and no filter change. And maybe this is where the communication breakdown with oil analyzers.

Someone posted in this thread that every 4000 miles he added a quart. Well since during 8000 Mike's I did not need to add additional lube, I thought that they were asking how much (how many quarts) were added between oil changes. And there are situations where some truck owners will run their oil for 30k, but change their filters every 15k, since I did not change my filter halfway through the life of the oil, I said I didn't change the filter. I guess, that is where the communication breakdown is. Of course, I change the filters when I change the oil. Especially when there is an issue with the oil that I am draining.

 

[brucejohnson]

I hadn't responded to Bruce's comments about why I said zero lube added and no filter change. And maybe this is where the communication breakdown with oil analyzers.

Someone posted in this thread that every 4000 miles he added a quart. Well since during 8000 Mike's I did not need to add additional lube, I thought that they were asking how much (how many quarts) were added between oil changes. And there are situations where some truck owners will run their oil for 30k, but change their filters every 15k, since I did not change my filter halfway through the life of the oil, I said I didn't change the filter. I guess, that is where the communication breakdown is. Of course, I change the filters when I change the oil. Especially when there is an issue with the oil that I am draining.

I was more focused on the "Lube Changed" being a "No" leading me to believe the oil was not changed when the sample was taken and, if so, how was the oil sample taken? Just curious.