rumors

[DGerth]

I hear them all the time, a 3500 HD is virtually the same as a 4500 except for GVWR as in the drive components are the same only the springs have been changed for more capacity. What say you gentlemen?
dg

 

[p-Bar]

Ford owns Cummins

 

[AH64ID]

lol, who says that....

That is very simply a false statement/assumption.

Sure they both have 6.7 Cummins, but the C&C version is different than the SO or HO versions.

The 3500 HO and the 4500 do share a transmission, the AS69RC.

The frame is much stronger on the 4500, capable of a GVWR up to 19,500 (5500), and is shared with the 5500.

The brakes are larger on a 4500, and the same as a 5,500.

The front axle of a 4500 is 10.5" AAM with a FAWR of 7,250 (vs a 9.25" w/ a FAWR of 6,000).

The rear axle of is 4500 is an AAM unit capable of up to 13,500 RAWR (on a 5500) vs the max RAWR of a 3500 at 9,750.

Both the 3500 and 4500 have a GVWR that is lower than FAWR+RAWR, but the combo of those numbers shows what they are really capable of and the 4500 is a much more capable vehicle.

Yes the 3500 HO Max Tow does have a higher tow rating, but it's geared more towards towing and the C&C are geared more towards hauling. Put them both at max GCWR for 250K miles and the C&C should be in better shape at the end.


Now all that being said the Ram 3500 is more similar to a F-450 P/U, which is not a C&C truck.

 

[p-Bar]

Sorry I just had to....

 

[AH64ID]

Sorry I just had to....

I got a good laugh out of it.

 

[Turbo Terry]

Good info. Actually something I always wondered about

 

[NIsaacs]

Now all that being said the Ram 3500 is more similar to a F-450 P/U,

The F-450 is a whole nuther animal, overbuilt for it's GVW/tow rating. I would say the Ram 3500 is more similar to a F-350.

Then when you factor in the Fords, 500/1200 power, 10 speed transmission and 19.5's (F-450).....

 

[AH64ID]

The F-450 is a whole nuther animal, overbuilt for it's GVW/tow rating. I would say the Ram 3500 is more similar to a F-350.

Then when you factor in the Fords, 500/1200 power, 10 speed transmission and 19.5's (F-450).....

The F-450 pickup was another class for a couple years at its debut, but the mileage sucked and it had very limited capabilities on paper. They went thru a huge revamp a while back and now it’s really just an F-350 with 19.5’s, which are completely unnecessary for any of its axle ratings (6,000/9,900). The F-350 and F-450 p/u share the same frame and running gear, the M300 is the rear axle used but the F-450 p/u gets 4.30’s. It’s no more overbuilt than a Ram 3500 is for a 14K GVWR.

Basically the F-450 P/U is their version of a Ram 3500 HO Max Tow.

 

[NIsaacs]

The F-450 pickup was another class for a couple years at its debut, but the mileage sucked and it had very limited capabilities on paper. They went thru a huge revamp a while back and now it’s really just an F-350 with 19.5’s, which are completely unnecessary for any of its axle ratings (6,000/9,900). The F-350 and F-450 p/u share the same frame and running gear, the M300 is the rear axle used but the F-450 p/u gets 4.30’s. It’s no more overbuilt than a Ram 3500 is for a 14K GVWR.

Basically the F-450 P/U is their version of a Ram 3500 HO Max Tow.

19.5's is overbuilt for the ratings, I would also assume larger brakes. The F-350 is rated 38k gcw, v/s the Ram 3500 @ 37k, F-450 is 40k. On paper, the F-450 is more capable, than the Ram 3500 by a pretty big margin.

 

[AH64ID]

19.5's is overbuilt for the ratings, I would also assume larger brakes. The F-350 is rated 38k gcw, v/s the Ram 3500 @ 37k, F-450 is 40k. On paper, the F-450 is more capable, than the Ram 3500 by a pretty big margin.

19.5’s may be “overbuilt”, but that doesn’t make them unnecessary. I get a kick out of watching guys try to drive them in winter empty, way worse than DRW’s with LT’s. You can put 10 ply tires on a 1500 and it’s still got 1500 axles, that’s not overbuilt IMHO that’s unnecessary equipment.

Yea slightly larger brakes and a wide track front axle.

F-350 max GCWR 43.4K
F-450 max GCWR 45.3K
Ram 3500 max GCWR 43K

4x4 Crew Cab Long beds (most common) are lower GCWR for the F-450 P/U, 43.5K, which puts all 3 4x4 CC LB’s within 500lbs of each other. Both the Ram and F-350 are actually rated to tow more than the F-450 p/u. The Ram by 1,470, and the F-350 by 2,100.

On paper the F-450 also has a lower payload due to its weight, thou that’s really mute for personal use as GVWR doesn’t mean anything most places.


It’s a stout pickup, but it’s still a pickup and shouldn’t be confused with the 450 C&C.

 

[NIsaacs]

19.5’s may be “overbuilt”, but that doesn’t make them unnecessary. that’s not overbuilt IMHO that’s unnecessary equipment.

Until you have a flat and not know it, loaded up to max GVW. I see the F-350 has a max payload of 8k. I would think the rear axle would need to be higher than 9900 lbs to achieve that. Technical info is kinda scarce on the '23's.

 

[lpennock]

Until you have a flat and not know it, loaded up to max GVW. I see the F-350 has a max payload of 8k. I would think the rear axle would need to be higher than 9900 lbs to achieve that. Technical info is kinda scarce on the '23's.

I doubt the F350 has a max payload of 8K in anything but a conventional cab 60CA CC. 350/3500 Class are 14K GVW minus 8K payload puts the curb weight at 6K. That is over 2K lighter than my unloaded 3500DRW pickup.

 

[AH64ID]

Until you have a flat and not know it, loaded up to max GVW. I see the F-350 has a max payload of 8k. I would think the rear axle would need to be higher than 9900 lbs to achieve that. Technical info is kinda scarce on the '23's.

Same can be true for any flat scenario, but with 19.5's and a 9,900 RAWR the rear tires are overinflated at their minimum pressure so you do have a bigger margin than LT's, but IMHO not worth the negatives that come with them the rest of the time. Minimum pressure on 225/70R19.5 is 70 psi, which provides 5,790 for the front axle, and 10,880 for the rear. So unless you run them quite a bit overinflated you would still be overloading a single tire at the RAWR if a rear tire went flat, which means it likely won't last long anyways. Sure is nice to have TPIS. But that also shows why it's unnecessary for 19.5's, 75 psi covers the FAWR and 70 psi covers the RAWR, and with the minimum pressure being 70 psi you can't air down for lower loads or winter driving.

A 4x2 F-350 can have up to a 10,300 RAWR, but the F-450 is limited to 9,900. The reg cab 6.2 4x2 has the highest payload at 7,218, which means it has a curb weight of 6,782.

I don't think Ford is building 2023's yet, so probably not a lot of info. They have had some serious order/build challenges recently.

 

[Ozymandias]

My opinion is that the 19.5 have been a great alternative at yhe time when our trucks came with 15" & 16" flotation tires and rims from the factory - nowadays with 18" and 20" 4ims they are totally obsolet and there is no benefit from putting these semi tires onto a midsized pickup truck.

But that's me that had its fair share with the 19.5 tires...

 

[crazy jerry]

3500 and 4500 may have the same eng and trans and tcase but everything else in the drivetrain is entirely different. op sounds like a lost puppy that believes anything

 

[NIsaacs]

My point is/was the F-450 is a bigger more capable truck than the Ram 3500, that the F-350 is on par. This is using published ratings as the basis.

Some quotes from the following link:

"Super Duty pickup offers the best maximum payload rating available at 8,000 pounds"

• Best maximum available gooseneck towing of 40,000 pounds* with F-450 pickup
• Best maximum available gooseneck in F-350/3500 DRW pickup subsegment with 38,000 pounds‡
• Best maximum available 5th wheel towing of 35,000 pounds with F-450 DRW pickup
• Best maximum available conventional towing capacity in its class at 30,000 pounds‡‡
• Best maximum available conventional towing in the F350/3500 DRW subsegment of 28,000 pounds‡‡‡
• Best maximum available conventional towing in the F350/3500 SRW subsegment of 25,000 pounds§
• Best diesel F-250/2500 pickups subsegment maximum available towing with F-250 offering 23,000 pounds§§
• Best maximum available 7.3-liter V8 gas F-350 DRW conventional towing of 22,000 pounds¶
• F-350 equipped with Tremor Off-Road and Power Stroke high-output diesel is rated at 23,000 pounds towing a gooseneck§§§
• Best maximum towing for an F-350/3500 gas Tremor Off-Road with 21,000 pounds¶¶

https://media.ford.com/content/ford...per-duty-pickup-takes-heavy-duty-triple-.html

 

[NIsaacs]

My opinion is that the 19.5 have been a great alternative at yhe time when our trucks came with 15" & 16" flotation tires and rims from the factory - nowadays with 18" and 20" 4ims they are totally obsolet and there is no benefit from putting these semi tires onto a midsized pickup truck.

But that's me that had its fair share with the 19.5 tires...

Except 18"-20" aren't an option on dually trucks yet....

 

[SnoKing]

The only reason for the average Ford user to get the F-450 now is that it has the wide track front axle. That was an option on the F-350 that is no longer available.

 

[AH64ID]

My point is/was the F-450 is a bigger more capable truck than the Ram 3500, that the F-350 is on par. This is using published ratings as the basis.

Some quotes from the following link:

"Super Duty pickup offers the best maximum payload rating available at 8,000 pounds"

• Best maximum available gooseneck towing of 40,000 pounds* with F-450 pickup
• Best maximum available gooseneck in F-350/3500 DRW pickup subsegment with 38,000 pounds‡
• Best maximum available 5th wheel towing of 35,000 pounds with F-450 DRW pickup
• Best maximum available conventional towing capacity in its class at 30,000 pounds‡‡
• Best maximum available conventional towing in the F350/3500 DRW subsegment of 28,000 pounds‡‡‡
• Best maximum available conventional towing in the F350/3500 SRW subsegment of 25,000 pounds§
• Best diesel F-250/2500 pickups subsegment maximum available towing with F-250 offering 23,000 pounds§§
• Best maximum available 7.3-liter V8 gas F-350 DRW conventional towing of 22,000 pounds¶
• F-350 equipped with Tremor Off-Road and Power Stroke high-output diesel is rated at 23,000 pounds towing a gooseneck§§§
• Best maximum towing for an F-350/3500 gas Tremor Off-Road with 21,000 pounds¶¶

https://media.ford.com/content/ford...per-duty-pickup-takes-heavy-duty-triple-.html

All the data I am talking about is for '22's, as Ford isn't building 23's yet. If you look at their '23 towing guide then not much has actually changed. The most popular model (Crew Cab, Long Bed, 4x4) is unchanged on its GCWR from 2022. The 40K gooseneck option is only available on Reg Cab 2x4 models. Really need to compare apples to apples.

To claim the F-350 has an 8K payload means that either the lightest truck for '23 is 782 lbs lighter than the lightest truck for '22, or they are taking some marketing liberties... max payload actually appears to be 7,344lbs.

https://www.fleet.ford.com/content/...s/2023_Ford_RVandTrailerTowingGuide_Nov22.pdf

 

[NIsaacs]

The 40K gooseneck option is only available on Reg Cab 2x4 models. Really need to compare apples to apples.

or they are taking some marketing liberties...

https://www.fleet.ford.com/content/...s/2023_Ford_RVandTrailerTowingGuide_Nov22.pdf

Yes, some pencil whipping going on, such as F-250 as high as 11,200 GVW, not exactly 3/4 ton territory...

As far as Reg Cab 4x2 models getting the highest payload/tow rating, that's all manufactures, so, apples and apples....