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Guns, Bows, Shooting Sports, and Hunting 12 guage slugs vs a bear?
- Thread starter Gary - K7GLD
- Start Date
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For the Sierra's, a 1911 has plenty of stopping power. California Black Bears arn't that big, I've encountered several over the years and I'll bet the biggest was about 250lbs. California Mountain lions are thin skinned and usually around 100 lbs, so the . 45 is more than enough... unfortunatly, with the lion you may feal it before you see it!
Where'd you get the info on the bear attack in yosemite? Googling around a bit I can't find anything. At least one site says there has never been a fatal bear attack in yosemite.
Been camping in various remote parts of California all my life and never felt remotely threatened by a four legged creature. Even the ones I've seen break into cars and ice chests and backpacks never seemed personally threatening. I do carry when I'm camping but its mostly the two legged variety of animal that concerns me.
Been camping in various remote parts of California all my life and never felt remotely threatened by a four legged creature. Even the ones I've seen break into cars and ice chests and backpacks never seemed personally threatening. I do carry when I'm camping but its mostly the two legged variety of animal that concerns me.
What they said! Get a full stock on that shotgun and get Brenneke rifled slugs. Practice some. They make a lot more noise and more recoil than a bird load. 1911 with 230 grain hollow points will take care of the bear too but can you hit the bear when it is coming at you is the big question. I would carry the full stocked Mossberg slug gun with a load of birdshot in the chamber and slugs behind it. Unless the bear is right on you I would fire the first shot over the bears head and then be ready to start shooting for effect with the slugs.
Also,a load of #6's at ranges shorter than 20yds is much like a slug in that it hasn't strung out much if the bear is close on you. Good luck.
Also,a load of #6's at ranges shorter than 20yds is much like a slug in that it hasn't strung out much if the bear is close on you. Good luck.
It was in the news maybe just a couple years ago. I remember the story also. Not sure where it happened, but if I remember right the bear had dragged the victim off into the brush and it took a little time to find (the child).
I found a couple stories, not necessarily the sierras, but too darn close for me.
Woman visits site of fatal bear attack - Cleveland Metro News – The Latest Breaking News, Photos and Stories from The Plain Dealer
SierraVisions.com » Be Bear Aware
Utah Boy Killed in Bear Attack - Topix
Fatal Black Bear Attack in Great Smokies National Park
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Thanks Phil - I hadn't had time to dig back for the story - besides, the exact location of the event isn't nearly as important as the fact that it DOES happen - and it might well pay to be prepared!
And again, I'm in NO WAY planning on going bear hunting, or taking special actions to that end - simply wondering if the 12 gauge I already have and frequently have along in the RV would be practical for use if needed in an emergency situation - the overwhelming replies seem to indicate it would - thanks guys!
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Yeah, looks like it happens. In one story they were saying that since we are taking so many measures not to feed the bears like the bear-proof containers, etc. that bears have been becoming more aggressive towards people. Pepper spray seems to be a consensus. I was re-thinking the situation and if i had a 12 gauge, I'd probably prefer some heavy shot vs the slug, just because "with all the commotion going on" (got that from Clint Eastwood) the shot would be more apt to hit the target and if you hit it with the full load, its still carrying a lot of knock down force. Plus it'll work on more types of attackers (smaller ones that move fast, etc). Think I'm changing my vote from a slug to some heavy shot (more versatile - still affective up close). Plus launching a round over a bear's head to scare him off means someone else could get hit. Shot is safer in that respect also. After trying to not provoke him and you have no choice left would probably shoot at the ground next to him and let him know you mean biz. Kinda like the ol "dancing bears" - haha. . Wheres the salt?
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More Power in a Tight Package!
For a much smaller package and greater range and accuracy, I'd recommend a Marlin 1895GS Ported Guide Gun in 45-70. It is not as big a bullet as a 12 GA slug, but it is substantially higher accuracy, deeper penetration, and more energy potential, able to beat most bolt action rifles in accuracy. Special handloads can achieve 1" groups at 200 yards! I reload it with 500 grain soft points and 500 grain soft cast bullets. It has a 18. 5" ported barrel so it is a very small but powerful rifle for big game. There are many different bullet makers for it that make frangibles, triple ball shot, or even strung buck. One company I found has a 500 grain bullet with a tungsten core, claims it can penetrate both shoulders of a adult rhino at once, now that is power in a tight package. Even with the ported barrel, it still has some recoil bite.
For a much smaller package and greater range and accuracy, I'd recommend a Marlin 1895GS Ported Guide Gun in 45-70. It is not as big a bullet as a 12 GA slug, but it is substantially higher accuracy, deeper penetration, and more energy potential, able to beat most bolt action rifles in accuracy. Special handloads can achieve 1" groups at 200 yards! I reload it with 500 grain soft points and 500 grain soft cast bullets. It has a 18. 5" ported barrel so it is a very small but powerful rifle for big game. There are many different bullet makers for it that make frangibles, triple ball shot, or even strung buck. One company I found has a 500 grain bullet with a tungsten core, claims it can penetrate both shoulders of a adult rhino at once, now that is power in a tight package. Even with the ported barrel, it still has some recoil bite.
You guys talking about the bear attacks reminded me of my close encounter.
My family camps in the Cougar, WA area every labour day to pick huckle berries. One night my friend and I are sleeping in my pup tent and I wake up to heavy breathing circleing outside the tent and it would brush up against the tent every once in a while and eventually went away. Hours later I was finally able to get back to sleep and when I woke up and looked outside the tent there were bear tracks circling the tent. Each print was a good 6" across with definate claw marks.
My family camps in the Cougar, WA area every labour day to pick huckle berries. One night my friend and I are sleeping in my pup tent and I wake up to heavy breathing circleing outside the tent and it would brush up against the tent every once in a while and eventually went away. Hours later I was finally able to get back to sleep and when I woke up and looked outside the tent there were bear tracks circling the tent. Each print was a good 6" across with definate claw marks.
You guys talking about the bear attacks reminded me of my close encounter.
My family camps in the Cougar, WA area every labour day to pick huckle berries. One night my friend and I are sleeping in my pup tent and I wake up to heavy breathing circleing outside the tent and it would brush up against the tent every once in a while and eventually went away. Hours later I was finally able to get back to sleep and when I woke up and looked outside the tent there were bear tracks circling the tent. Each print was a good 6" across with definate claw marks.
Good thing you didn't smell like fish or bacon...
:-lafSeveral years ago my friend John Johnson and his brother Neil were sleeping in a tent somewhere up by Mammoth when in the middle of the night a bear made his way inside the tent with them. We always had the rule if you encounter one, stay very calm and dont escalate the situation. Their answer was to "freeze in place". That bear was nose to nose with John and John said he had some nasty bad breath. Neil also got a little nose rub too and he said that bear was rotton. Anyways, they didn't move at all. They stayed totally still and the bear just sniffed around and wondered back out of the tent and left. They were not happy campers that night as they probably needed to change undergarments outside in the cold. 
Someone commented earlier about using shot instead of a slug.
I remember about 45 years ago (strange I have trouble remembering stuff that happened last week, but that 45 year old stuff is pretty vivid) I was reading a magazine while waiting at the barber shop. Field and Stream or Guns & Ammo, something like that. Anyway, there was a story about a guy in AK or Canada taking a B/C Record Book Grizzly. Seems that when they took it to the taxidermist for the mount the taxidermist found an entire 12 guage load of shot encapsulated in the bears snout. The whole thing was in a space about 2 inches in diameter, which means it was absorbed by the bear from essentially contact range. The story also mentioned that there were no known stories of close encounters where the potential victim fired at point blank range into the face of a grizzly and lived to tell about it...
Based on that, I think I'd prefer a slug.
I remember about 45 years ago (strange I have trouble remembering stuff that happened last week, but that 45 year old stuff is pretty vivid) I was reading a magazine while waiting at the barber shop. Field and Stream or Guns & Ammo, something like that. Anyway, there was a story about a guy in AK or Canada taking a B/C Record Book Grizzly. Seems that when they took it to the taxidermist for the mount the taxidermist found an entire 12 guage load of shot encapsulated in the bears snout. The whole thing was in a space about 2 inches in diameter, which means it was absorbed by the bear from essentially contact range. The story also mentioned that there were no known stories of close encounters where the potential victim fired at point blank range into the face of a grizzly and lived to tell about it...
Based on that, I think I'd prefer a slug.
Home Defense/Security Pump Shotguns???
This thread is a very interesting read & something I've been considering, for awhile.
I'm nearing retirement & would like to tow my trailer up to AK for the entire summer. I feel very uncomfortable NOT carrying a weapon for self defense purposes. Normally, a S&W . 357 handgun. Unfortunately, Canada does not have much of a sense of humor regarding the carrying of handguns through their country (which, they have the right to do. Their country. Their rules!!!)
I've read that for fifty bucks, you can get written permission to carry a shotgun through Canada. That might be the answer.
I've heard that the Remington 870 has been very popular & is considered a quality weapon, as are the Mossberg Pump offerings. What about the Winchester pumps? I think the Benneli's are a bit expensive, as I recall.
I will not use this shotgun for hunting purposes. Only self defense. I like the extra capacity tubes on the HD/Security shotguns.
Any thoughts or recommendations would be appreciated.
Thanks.
Joe F.
Incidently, I read of a guy from Naturita/Nucla, CO. that went camping in his pick-up with a camper in the bed of the truck, near home in the Uncompaghre Plateau. A bear attacked the camper & he shot at it through the camper but, the bear got in anyways, killed him & ate part of him &, buried the rest of the body in leaves for a snack, later on.
The guy missed a dental appointment, which, was very unusual, for him. So, his friends knew where he liked to camp & found what was left of him. Fish & Game officers found the bear & dispatched him.
Although rare, it does happen, occasionally.
This thread is a very interesting read & something I've been considering, for awhile.
I'm nearing retirement & would like to tow my trailer up to AK for the entire summer. I feel very uncomfortable NOT carrying a weapon for self defense purposes. Normally, a S&W . 357 handgun. Unfortunately, Canada does not have much of a sense of humor regarding the carrying of handguns through their country (which, they have the right to do. Their country. Their rules!!!)
I've read that for fifty bucks, you can get written permission to carry a shotgun through Canada. That might be the answer.
I've heard that the Remington 870 has been very popular & is considered a quality weapon, as are the Mossberg Pump offerings. What about the Winchester pumps? I think the Benneli's are a bit expensive, as I recall.
I will not use this shotgun for hunting purposes. Only self defense. I like the extra capacity tubes on the HD/Security shotguns.
Any thoughts or recommendations would be appreciated.
Thanks.
Joe F.
Incidently, I read of a guy from Naturita/Nucla, CO. that went camping in his pick-up with a camper in the bed of the truck, near home in the Uncompaghre Plateau. A bear attacked the camper & he shot at it through the camper but, the bear got in anyways, killed him & ate part of him &, buried the rest of the body in leaves for a snack, later on.
The guy missed a dental appointment, which, was very unusual, for him. So, his friends knew where he liked to camp & found what was left of him. Fish & Game officers found the bear & dispatched him.
Although rare, it does happen, occasionally.
I didn't go through every post in this thread, so I apologize if I missed it, but you need to be careful what kind of slugs you get. All 12 gauge slugs are definitely not created equal! The main kind you want to avoid are the pure lead, hollow base slugs. They're very soft and you won't get anywhere near adequate penetration with them. They're easy to recognize because they tend to be a dark gray and have a very blunt round-nose profile, sometimes with a small, shallow hollow-point. Brenneke slugs are harder and are good, as is any kind of sabot slug. The pure copper slugs would also be good.
I won't be so quick to condemn the pistol grip on a shotgun for this purpose. Above all, self protection weapons need to be convenient enough to take with you under all circumstances. If it's big and cumbersome enough that you're tempted to leave it in the motorhome while you walk the short 20 yards over to the something-or-other, then it's not much use to you. A short shotgun with a pistol grip is a little more convenient to throw on like a bandolier than one with a full stock. This is why large caliber magnum handguns are so popular--they're a weapon of convenience, not a weapon of preference. Is a pistol grip shotgun fun to shoot? No, but shoot a few rounds with it to verify you can control it adequately and call it good.
Something else to consider--a bear that's just nosing around trying to figure out what you are is totally different than one which has decided you're a threat or lunch and has committed to killing you. The former is easily scared off with noise, pepper spray, etc. while the latter will charge and won't be deterred by anything less than a spine or brain shot.
All that said, my first choice for a relatively handy bear weapon would be a Marlin Guide Gun. They're about the size and weight of a short barrelled shotgun, but a heavy . 45-70 load has much, much more power than a 12 gauge slug, and the lever action provides for quick follow-up shots much like the shotgun's pump action. You still wouldn't be under-gunned with the 12 gauge though. Carry it with proper loads and have confidence.
Mike
I won't be so quick to condemn the pistol grip on a shotgun for this purpose. Above all, self protection weapons need to be convenient enough to take with you under all circumstances. If it's big and cumbersome enough that you're tempted to leave it in the motorhome while you walk the short 20 yards over to the something-or-other, then it's not much use to you. A short shotgun with a pistol grip is a little more convenient to throw on like a bandolier than one with a full stock. This is why large caliber magnum handguns are so popular--they're a weapon of convenience, not a weapon of preference. Is a pistol grip shotgun fun to shoot? No, but shoot a few rounds with it to verify you can control it adequately and call it good.
Something else to consider--a bear that's just nosing around trying to figure out what you are is totally different than one which has decided you're a threat or lunch and has committed to killing you. The former is easily scared off with noise, pepper spray, etc. while the latter will charge and won't be deterred by anything less than a spine or brain shot.
All that said, my first choice for a relatively handy bear weapon would be a Marlin Guide Gun. They're about the size and weight of a short barrelled shotgun, but a heavy . 45-70 load has much, much more power than a 12 gauge slug, and the lever action provides for quick follow-up shots much like the shotgun's pump action. You still wouldn't be under-gunned with the 12 gauge though. Carry it with proper loads and have confidence.
Mike
Are you actually serious? If a bear is charging you in the middle of nowhere do you really care if your round over penetrates?
If it "over penetrates" but fails to hit brain or spinal cord, then it's better to have both an entry and an exit wound.
Mike
Having worked most of my career in bear country, i. e. Northern Continental Divide Ecosystem and the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem, I remain of the opinion that a can or two of pepper spray and two or more good stock dogs are the best choice for a good nights sleep and covering the country on and off trails. Besides the border collies make for good company too. Could say I've met my share of bears... . the ones I, or the dogs, knew about.
Having sad that I also believe in a back up to the dogs and spray. I spent years trying to persuade the FS that crews in serious bear country should have the option to carry either a 12 ga. or 300 Win. mag. The FS folks are the only ones prohibited from carrying in the back country. That is excepting the law enforcement and a few packers who have finagled permission in order to put down stock. Some crews in AK are permitted a weapons bearer. Unfortunately, it is going to take some folks going through the meat grinder, so to speak, before this changes.
Having sad that I also believe in a back up to the dogs and spray. I spent years trying to persuade the FS that crews in serious bear country should have the option to carry either a 12 ga. or 300 Win. mag. The FS folks are the only ones prohibited from carrying in the back country. That is excepting the law enforcement and a few packers who have finagled permission in order to put down stock. Some crews in AK are permitted a weapons bearer. Unfortunately, it is going to take some folks going through the meat grinder, so to speak, before this changes.
I am a fan of the heavy end of the spectrum for brown bear. I have been charged by a bear on Admiralty Island. Can't say I like it much. In any case I currently carry a 458 winmag loaded with 350 grain bullets. I have also carried a 338 or a 12 gauge with slugs. There was a defensible bear shooting on the Kenai Peninsula this year by a guide named Greg Brush. He was successful with a 454 Casull. There aren't many handguns that imo are adequate for brown bears. Likely the low end is around 44 mag. The state of Alaska is going to want a piece of you up here if you shoot one of their bears and it isn't close enough to fall on your toes.
Chief USA
TDR MEMBER
I hear what is being said about the slug being more effective. I agree 110% PROVIDED you hit the bear with it. In the heat of the moment when a bear or other confrontation unexpected happens... ... a LOT of things can happen AND go wrong. In the event I am forced to protect myself or family with a shotgun, I want to make sure I hit what I am shooting at. With a rifled slug, your shot is covering a very small area. With 00 buckshot or similar derivative multi-projectile shotgun shell, your chance of a hit is HUGELY increased. NO... ... it is not nearly as effective as a hit with a slug but a miss with a slug is FAR worse and could be fatal.
My suggestion would be either of these, especially the military grade 00 buckshot loads:
10 Rds. 12 - Ga. 2 3/4 Multi - Defense Buckshot Shells, Shotgun Ammunition, Centurion at Sportsman's Guide
50 Rds. 12 - Ga. 2 3/4 Buckshot Ammo, Shotgun Ammunition, Brand Not Specified at Sportsman's Guide
A bear shot, especially multiple times with either of these WILL know he has been hurt REAL bad. 00 buckshot at 1450 fps is a smokin' hot load and will provide very good penetration and massive blood lose. The other mult-defense loads should do well also. A 65 caliber ball surrounded by 6 buckshot pellets will do tremendous damage especially at close range, but with a bear, I want the close range shots to be a LAST resort.
Rifle and pistol shots fired in a fire fight or survival situation have a very low hit percentage. If you are gonna carry a shotgun, fire shot. Otherwise carry a compact rifle or pistol with enough power and magazine capacity to get the job done. A Smith & Wesson Model 629-2 with a 3 inch barrel is a fairly compact and "carriable" hand gun but you better practice with it and have a Hause Cartwright grip and hold on it because the muzzle flash, flash, and recoil is a bear itself.
My suggestion would be either of these, especially the military grade 00 buckshot loads:
10 Rds. 12 - Ga. 2 3/4 Multi - Defense Buckshot Shells, Shotgun Ammunition, Centurion at Sportsman's Guide
50 Rds. 12 - Ga. 2 3/4 Buckshot Ammo, Shotgun Ammunition, Brand Not Specified at Sportsman's Guide
A bear shot, especially multiple times with either of these WILL know he has been hurt REAL bad. 00 buckshot at 1450 fps is a smokin' hot load and will provide very good penetration and massive blood lose. The other mult-defense loads should do well also. A 65 caliber ball surrounded by 6 buckshot pellets will do tremendous damage especially at close range, but with a bear, I want the close range shots to be a LAST resort.
Rifle and pistol shots fired in a fire fight or survival situation have a very low hit percentage. If you are gonna carry a shotgun, fire shot. Otherwise carry a compact rifle or pistol with enough power and magazine capacity to get the job done. A Smith & Wesson Model 629-2 with a 3 inch barrel is a fairly compact and "carriable" hand gun but you better practice with it and have a Hause Cartwright grip and hold on it because the muzzle flash, flash, and recoil is a bear itself.
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