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12 volt industrial electric motor as a lift pump motor

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I am looking at a 32 series dc 12 volt electric motor and would like any input as to your experiences with them, good, bad, indifferent.



Specifically, I am looking at the (BisonGear.com) BisonGear 051-203-4045:

32 series, 12v dc, 1/6hp, 1948 rpm, 14. 4 amp, 93 inch oz. motor.



Any input?



Thanks,



Bob Weis
 
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The reason I brought this up is the common thread about all electric pumps is failure of the electric motor. Seldomly, any more since we are using fuel bypasses back to the tank to prevent cavitation, is there a actual pump problem.



The most reliable pumps (pump only) I can find are the mechanical gear pumps like the RASP, Fuel Boss, Barry Grant, Aeromotive, etc. However you need a ultra reliable motor to drive them. I think that is why they all seem to use the pulley off the crankshaft, belt, pump drive pulley system. If the engine is turning, you HAVE fuel pressure.



I have a family member in the warehouse distribution business (conveyor belts, motors of all kinds that run for years and years without attention). So I asked him where they got the motors that last years and years and are truely industrial quality motors.



Bisongear.com, Groschopp.com.



I needed a 12 volt extremely rugged motor that I could mount somewhere either driven directly or with the pulley belt combination of the RASP, Fuel Boss, that would out last the 1 million miles I plan to drive my truck.



Groschopp has a 12 v dc motor that I think would not need the pulley belt system because it runs at 1100 rpm and I think that would be ok for the RASP or Fuel Boss since they turn at 1/2 of the crankshaft speed. You would have to do a commercial industrial coupling to compensate any mis alignment, but they are readily available. However the motor cost $415, a bit too pricy for me.



Bisongear has a 12 v dc motor that would fit the requirement but it runs at 1948 rpm and with the pulley belt system would really be very close to cruise speed of the cummins crankshaft. It cost $175 and I feel is more reasonablly priced.



So where I am going with this is building a (backup system for me because I already have the RASP) industrial quality motor to drive a mechanical gear fuel pump and mount it somewhere down by the tank. The dc motor should out last the truck, the mechanical gear fuel pump should also out last the truck. That should put this lp problem to bed permanently, you should never have to ever touch it again, ever.



As with any of the mechanical gear driven fuel pumps you have to have a fuel bypass return back to the tank because these pumps will pump way way way more fuel than the VP44 could ever swallow. You set the fuel psi to the VP44 with a mechanical bypass valve that you adjust the shims and springs to get what you want.



The BisonGear pump (051-203-4045, 32 series, 12v 1/6 hp, 1948 rpm, 14 amp, 93 in oz torque) also has a CONTINUOUS rating. That is not spelled out in their web site and the specs there. I called their engineering dept and wanted to be absolutely sure that the motor could run continuously for years at a time if need be. Also notice the other specs of ceramic magnetics, dynamically balanced armature and shaft, heat range able to run continuously unventilated, commercial quality replaceable brushes from the outside, sealed permanently lubricated bearings, etc. IF you would ever have to rebuild it, it is rebuildable by companies that cater to industries (wearhouses, hydraulic lifts, all sorts of industries) that use fractional hp type motors for about $150 total rebuild.



I realize that for my application (backup lp) this is totally gross overkill. However, if you are or have been tossing carter pumps, holley pumps, or whatever at the lp problem, this might be a permanent solution for you.



I know the Walbro 392's seem to be holding up well, the AirTex might also hold up well. They are priced well also. Members are getting years of service out of them at a time.



I think the mechanical gear driven fuel pump has a mean time between failure beyond the ever possible life of a CTD. I wanted to find a drive motor that would match the mean time between failure of the mechanical gear driven fuel pump to kill this lp problem permanently.



Bob Weis
 
Bob,

A DC motor drawing 14 Amps at 13. 8 Vdc is just under 200 Watts. I just don't think a 14 Amp draw is required to do the job. I haven't measured the current draw of my AirDog but, I would think it's less than 7 Amps but, certainly more than the "factory joke". The cavity of the Gear-pump it's self is quite nicely machined on the AirDog. I've not seen the FASS but, the end-cap plate on the AirDog sets the nearly "zero-gear" end play and keeps the wet-cavity singing correctly through out it's fuel delivery range. The DC motor drive shaft is sealed with a viton-packing that's nested in a machined cavity on the back of the pump body. Any long term end shaft play of the DC motor has no effect on the pump's main drive gear because the shaft enters the gear as a slip-fit keyed coupling hence, the gear pump it's self does not suffer from end-shaft play of the DC motor over time.



I encourage your efforts along this line of transfer pump systems but, honestly... . these higher end optional systems available in a package are very well designed for the job we need them to do. Longevity wise and serviceability wise I find all these benefits within the package I'm using at this time.



I appreciate your observations and I'll follow along as this aspect of fluid transfer and control systems is what I do for a living. I'm what they call in slang-terms a pump-man and tinkering with all sorts of pumps is my career. Once I discovered the Carter system that we have as a factory design... . and how it functions... it went into the trash. Sorry... . all Carter devices like that belong in the trash... not on a CTD.



William
 
I wanted to find a drive motor that would match the mean time between failure of the mechanical gear driven fuel pump to kill this lp problem permanently



Hmmm. .

Wouldn't you feel that AirDog,FASS or Walbro have done that about as good as anyone could ask?. Also,there is no such thing a "permanently" when it comes to electronics and/or electrical motors. Way to many variables that can influence how they work and some can lead to premature failures wouldn't you think?... ... ... ..... Andy
 
My FASS has been on since for nearly 5 years (since '03). No problems yet. I went through 4 Carter 4601HP's for 2 years ('01 to '03). I'd say the FASS did pretty good even if it fails tomorow.





Merrick
 
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Found a industrial 1/7 hp 12v DC NV (non vented) motor by a company that also builds motor PWM (Pulse Width Modulator motor speed controls). Their matched combination allows 1 rpm - 1750 rpm fully adjustable and at rated hp. Fully rebuildable if needed.



Have a little bit more to investigate on an external gear pump compatiable with the VP44. Fully rebuildable industrial gear pump.



Have the motor / pump direct coupler selection done. Lifetime.



Have a little more to do on mounting the motor / pump and adjustability for alignment (angular, verticle, horizontal, distance between).



Way over engineered, but should last the life time of the truck (decades).



Bob Weis



"Pump School" - an education in fluid handling An interesting web site about what pump is best suited for what. Gives good insite as to why the Carter (or any vane type pump) is ill suited for the intended purpose.
 
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Well, I got under to plan how the mounting would go if I went this way.



Too difficult to mount about 12" of motor base plate and gear pump down where all the rest of the fuel lines run. The Walbrow seems to be doing fairly well, so I am going to take a chance with it.



Therefore I am going to take the secondary choice and since I already run a mechanical external gear pump, just replace the carter OEM with a Walbro 392 and be done with it.



Thanks to all that put in their . 02, thanks to all that pm'ed about other kinds of pumps.



Bob Weis
 
I want to close out this thread with a really large THANKS to Richard at Glacier Diesel Power.



I started checking around for the Walbro 392 pump, the install kit, and the -AN6 fittings. I emailed Richard at Glacier Diesel Power and asked if he would consider selling just parts of his Walbro kit as I already had all the plumbing and check valves.



He replied right back and gave me a list of just the pump, install kit, and -AN6 fittings. He even put the items on his web site so I could order online.



NOW THAT IS TRULY CUSTOMER SERVICE!



He has certainly won over me as a customer. He did not have to break a kit, and his replys to email questions were well within an hour or two. I can not even get internal email within the company I work for to respond that fast.



NOW THAT IS TRULY CUSTOMER SERVICE!



I just wanted others to know where the really GOOD customer service is.



Bob Weis
 
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Thought I would add what I found out about prices.



RAE Motors 4Z143 1/7 hp (12 volt dc) motor $112. 20



RAE Motors PWM motor controller (perfectly matched to the motor to get the motor to the speed you want so you can adjust the psi to whatever you want) $79. 88



Coupler (1/2" drive) from Northern Tool ~ $50



External gear pump

Clark Solutions (B-Series, Models 1, 2, 3 & 4 Rotary Gear Pumps)

B series gear pump, model 1 (no grease fitting, no fluid loopback)

Model1 713-1-1 $271



(Glacier Diesel will sell just the Fuel Boss pump depending on what he has on hand and orders to be filled. However, he can get you just the FuelBoss pump which is much like the RASP pump. The cost is somewhat less than the Clark Solutions pump. What I have found with the RASP pump is it is not generally rebuildable in the field. There is a warrantee on the RASP pump and I would assume on the FuelBoss pump. It may last longer than your truck will last. However the Clark Solutions pump is fully rebuildable with easily orderable field rebuild kits. )



Total cost Motor, PWM for motor, External gear pump = $513. 08



Plus you have to have a fuel bypass return to the tank



Kinsler JetCan ~ $65



Total cost with fuel bypass $578. 08



hoses, fittings, etc would add to the total cost.



Bob Weis
 
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