12V - 4wd chassis recommendations

[MikeBennett]

Brand new TDR member here, great site.



I'm considering a Dodge cummins 4wd truck for my daughters first vehicle. My preferences at this point are: 12v, 4wd, 5 speed transmission, single rear wheels. I'm not looking for a base platform to build a hp monster, or a lifted off road giant, just a basic stock daily driver. Because of financial constraints, I'm probably limited to a 1st gen, though I might be able to squeeze up into the 2nd gen category if the price was right.



After a couple of days searching this site, I think I have come up with the following observations:



1st Generation:

12v, 160 hp (is this true even for the non-intercooled early ones?)

5 speed Getrag

NP205 transfer case



2nd Generation (12v models)

12v, up to 215 hp

5 speed NV4500

NVG 241 transfer



So, in the 12v 4wd world (sheet metal, cab style, and wheelbase length aside for the moment) which year provides the best or most sought after drivetrain and why?



From a front axle standpoint, which years are part time with manual locking hubs, full time, or have an axle dis-connect switch?



Are there advantages to one year over another that, 3 years from now, I wish I would have considered?



Thanks,

 

[AKimmel]

1st-Gen by far has the best drivetrain. Dana 60 front with king pins, locking hubs, and real wheel bearings, and a Dana 70 rear. Cast iron, gear drive 205 transfercase, only down side only 1. 96 to 1 low range. The Getrag 5 speed is good if they are set up right and maintained. The engine, not as high of horsepower, but its still a cummins, so who cares.



2nd-Gens use Dana 60 fronts, but they have full time unit bearing hubs, ball joints, and the crappy vacuum diconnect that was used on the older Dodge half tons. The rears are either Dana 70's or 80's depending. The transfercase is the aluminum chain drive 241, which is pretty tuff, but not as tuff as the 205. But, it does have a lower low range, I think around 2. 76 to 1. The nv4500 is a good trans, but the 5th gear is know to rattle loose. Engine is probably the best feature, more power stock, and supported by the aftermarket more than the first gen VE pump.

 

[MikeBennett]

Thank you for the quick reply.



I forgot to ask, but did the change to coil front springs also happen with the 2nd generation?



Thanks again,



mike

 

[stoneagemaxx]

yep, they may ride nicer but as said above many first genners dispise the '94 plus D60 because of the problomatic CAD units (central axel disconect) but my experiance w/problems with them stems from cold weather/freezing up and out in cali you might be able to get away w/o problems

 

[KOG]

2nd gen has more cab room, probably much better in a crash. I can't quite figure why a diesel P/U would be a good first daily driver for a daughter though.

 

[stoneagemaxx]

what would make it any worse than say a small car, or even a mid sized car, i would think a truck would be way safer due to its size, the only safty differences between 1st and 2nd would be an air bag i would think am i missing something?

 

[KOG]

Yep, you might be missing rollover, long braking idstance, slow cornering. And this is with a vehicle that's actually fast.

 

[Ncostello]

Big trucks are not inherently safer. 1st gens are older designs with no airbags, no 4WAL brakes, no door beams, no crumple zones, etc. I've seen plenty of high injury/fatality accidents with Suburbans, pickups and even semis in my 13 years with the fire department. Lots of dynamics and circumstances beyond the vehicle. 5-Star safety ratings are worth their weight in gold in my opinion. Plus due to age... these trucks require some "not so normal" maint and repairs. Remembering back to my 1st vehicle, a 79 D100, I sure wish I had the time back as a kid that I spent working on it.



But kudos for being different!! Boys will definately notice her!!! Is this something that she wants also? Or is she thinking Ram 1500 shortbed or Mustang GT??

 

[NIsaacs]

All the 1st. Gen's are good, however if you have a choice, the 91. 5-93 would be the best. Lotsa updates over the older ones.



Maybe she is a cowgirl and needs to pull a horse trailer, or don't wanna hafta look up at a VW Bug when it passes by, as in drivin a mini car





"NICK"

 

[KOG]

Yeah, if she needs to pull a horse trailer this is a great vehicle. But when I'm not hauling or towing I drive a Caravan. Quicker, cheaper, more comfortable, safer, MUCH better steering and brakes. And lots more interior room, easier to park. You do have to have the ability to ignore idiots who think that minivans aren't macho. I tend to laugh at them as ignorant, they just don't know what they're missing. And then there's the fact that my wallet is much, much thicker than theirs (almost always) partly because I don't use a P/U as a daily driver (yeah, that is a minor factor, but still---).

 

[MikeBennett]

Thanks for all the feedback, especially the reminders about safety.



So we now have:



1st Generation:

12v, 160 hp (is this true even for the non-intercooled early ones?)

5 speed Getrag

NP205 transfer case, 1. 96:1 low range

leaf spring front suspension

D60 king pin front axle with real bearings & manual hubs

D70 rear axle



2nd Generation (12v models)

12v, up to 215 hp

5 speed NV4500

NVG 241 transfer, 2. 72 low range

coil spring front suspension

D60 ball joint front axle with unit bearing hubs & central axle dis-connect

Dana 70 or 80 rear axle



Regarding the "why choose this truck for my daughters first vehicle", well..... thats a good question. There's more to this story, but it probably needs to be in a new thread... ... .



Thanks again,



mike

 

[MMiller]

Hmm, I can relate to this. I used to cruise on Saturday nights with my dad's then new 1993 CTD. The girls liked riding in a "big truck". I have had that truck since 95, and wouldn't trade it for the world. There's only been one time it hasn't started when I needed it to, and only one time in 240,000 miles of abuse it failed to get me home.



Is it safer? Thats a crap shoot no matter what. Each accident is different. I 'feel' a whole bunch safer in my 93, then the 84 VW diesel I drove to school. I take an old 4X4 truck more seriously then a small car at an intersection, she's more likely to be seen. My 11 year old boy says he wants a truck just like dad's when its his time to drive.



I do want to hear why the selection of a truck for your daughter, and I see no reason why it shouldn't be here in this thread...



As for your questions, if you find a good specimen any of the vintage CTDs will be good. Just like anything else, these trucks are getting up there in age and are going to need some TLC. If I lost my truck tomorrow, I'd be looking for another first gen.



Michael

 

[dpuckett]

I like the fact you can get rear ended by a Neon going 60+ and DRIVE the 1stGen home- BTDT. I was stopped waiting to make a left turn, and I saw the kid in my rear view coming way too fast to get stopped. Moved the truck 20ft forward and gave me a mild whiplash. For most slow speed crashes (<40mph), based on my personal experience, you are better off with a FRAME, not a unibody and crumple zones. Govt safety ratings, like most other govt entities, are a joke at best.



I cant think of any reason NOT to get your duaghter a 1stGen, or any full sized pickup. The notion that kids need some old, tiny POS shoebox on wheels for their first vehicle is just absurd. Getting noticed by the guys aside, 1stGens are in general more dependable, and if you need to, you can jump a wire from the battery to the IP solenoid to get home. Try doing that in a Honda or Toyota. They are also more intimidating, and some psycho is less likely to try to run her off the road.



Daniel

 

[stoneagemaxx]

Tottally agree w/ DP i'd take a fullsize truck over anything unless strickly on gas mileage, lets just say this when i first got my '92 it was just b4 winter and was screwin around keep in mind it has a plow rack but got out of hand at about 55mph and slammed straight into a dirt barrier and the only prob was that me and my slightly intoxicated passenger couldent stop laughing, there great trucks and as said above i wouldent trade it

 

[Tippin Spotted Cow]

I once rear-ended a 2000ish 4runner with my truck (learned that when the belts are coming through on tires, they may slide a little in the rain). I pushed his rear cargo door into his backseat. According to the insurance I did $9800 worth to his car. My bumper is a little warped on the drivers side, the fender is just barely pushed down, you can only see when you look at the hood lines, and I added a few more cracks to my plastic grill. Oh, and the headlight to this day isn't aimed high enough.



I also (purposely) clipped a guy's S10 at about 5mph and warped his entire bed, front to back, left to right, top to bottom. He absolutely deserved it and, no, I'm not crazy.



All and all, it's a good truck. As everyone said, be prepared to give it a little TLC. There's never been a time where my truck couldn't at least limp home (save my auto-transmission issues), and I beat the $&@% outta the thing most days. If you want a list of all the things that are guarenteed to already be broken, or will break soon, I'm sure any first gen owner could tell ya, though. But all and all, I'd take my glove compartment that doesn't stay shut (you all know exactly what I mean), over a wheel falling off anyday, and I've been lucky enough to not have too many big issues like that (once again, see auto-transmission note). Good huntin'. send pictures if you find one.

 

[Lurch]

2nd gen has better brakes.

 

[therabbittree]

Tippin Cow . . have a little road rage issue?. . ha... any how the first gens are nice I wish it had better brakes . . though the hydroboost swap is supposed to be a world of difference etc. . any how a first gen or a vw tdi would be great first car. .

later,

Deo

 

[Tippin Spotted Cow]

Not road rage... I (indirectly) knew the guy. Let's just say there was a girl involved... 'nuff said.



I have to agree about the brakes though. It's not that you'll lose them at random or anything... they're just an awful design. Then when you get new calipers they NEVER sit right in the brackets again... they must mess up the angle on the mating surface when they re-machine them. Add to that, that stupid spring clip tends to break and fall out, and then your brakes make a clunking noise everytime you hit a bump.



For the rears, you'll need a B. F. socket to do a brake job. Add to that, they're drums so it's already a pain.

 

[dpuckett]

Bypass the RWAL, and add a Dana80 (13x3. 5 brakes) and it alleviates the brake issue. Stops as well as Mom's Lincoln now.



DP

 

[therabbittree]

I would but the dana 80 can't have 3. 07 gears. . argh. . but the dana 110's and 135's can hehe... :-laf more money



Later

Deo