14CM non-gated

[Braveair78]

I know that alot of you are considering this as an upgrade so I'll try and give you my results/impressions since I have been running the 14 for a few months now with stock injectors and with the Lucas injectors. The main thing that I noticed right off is on flat terrain at a steady 70mph (RPM 2100 3. 54 gears 5-sp manual) that the boost used to run 2 with stock 18 CM. With the 14CM it is 5 psi. Consequently fuel mileage has dropped a bit. My EGT's for 70MPH flat terrain is just a hair under 600 F (pre-turbo). Since I have added my POD's and advanced timing (16 degrees)the EGT has dropped a tiny bit(maybe 590). Even going downhill on a steep grade with my foot off the accelerator (65-70mph) I still carry 2-3PSI of boost whereas before I would have none. So, Bob I guess the answer to a question that you posted earlier would be you carry higher drive pressures. I am seriously considering going with a 14CM gated setup in the future... . anyone with a gated 14CM, Non-gated 16CM, or a gated 12CM jump in with your results.

 

[formula]

Oh, boy, let's get good drive pressure thread going here#ad


As for my gated 14cm.....

I currently have the wastegate set at 26psi, more boost seems to be unnecessary. It will hit about 35psi with the wastegate closed, no improvement in performance. Running down highway on flat, 75mph, 2100rpm, 8-10psi, 600-650 EGT. Throttle response is waaayyyy better than stock, takes less than one second to reach full boost. IMO, a non gated 14cm is too restrictive if you're gonna crank up your fueling.



Sean

 

[Braveair78]

Yeah I just could'nt resist tossing this little grenade of a subject out there... . but, I was hoping for a few responses.

 

[formula]

Ah, man, now I'm gonna have to rig up a pressure gauge to the pyrometer port. It has to be done.



Sean

 

[JFitzgerald]

16 cm Results

FWIW, before I bought my 16, I was thinking a 14 might be the best fit for me. While talking with Piers about it, he asked what I do with the truck. As soon as I mentioned towing heavy, he recommended the 16, so that's what I bought. It did help response noticeably, but not dramatically. There was a big drop in smoke after installing it, so it is apparently getting more air than the 18. 5 was providing. Had to turn up the fuel some more. I'm happy with it. Can't offer EGT or boost numbers from before and after, since I installed the guages when the housing went in. Now it's making 23 PSI max in 5th unloaded, and it won't hit 1200* EGT. This is with stock injectors still. I can definitely get it over 1250* pulling the trailer, but the timing advance has helped that a bunch.



Edit: last night I checked the guages at 70 mph. For comparison, they showed 7 PSI and 725* on flat roads.

 

[McGivern]

12cm gated

I ran the non-gated 16 for 4 years and was pretty happy with the results.



In Dec 2001 I had my pump rebuilt and installed PW injectors, follwed by a BHAF and a gated 12cm off a 95 truck. I immediately noticed the "pressure cooker" sound when I was loaded at mid range RPM, even though the power and response was better.



Piers helped me solve the problem by selling me an HX35 cartridge with a better pinwheel. Now I have almost instant response and the gate set at 25psi. The moral of this story is, if you go wastegated, move to the HX35 for best results.



With the W. G. 12, I notice about 7 psi at 70MPH on level ground. Keep in mind I have a 4X4 spinning 35" tires. Mileage is definitely down, but I'm not sure whether that's the injectors, hopped up pump, 35" tires, or the turbo. I get about 17-18 combination city-highway.



The bottom line? Maybe a W. G. 14 would be the best, but they are a lot more expensive than a take-off 12 from a 2nd gen truck.

Comparing the 16 non gated to the 12 gated, I like the 12 gated better for my driving. If you drive in town quite a bit, the W. G makes the truck much more responsive and fun to drive. As for towing, my boat weighs about 6K on the trailer and I pull serious grades to Lake Powell with no problem (max post-turbine EGT is 850 at WOT on long 6% grade). For you guys pulling very heavy trailers, I bet the 16 non-gated is better for you.



My 2 cents worth.



Mark

 

[JLEONARD]

I have the 16 cm housing (and no intercooler). At 70, which is just under 2000rpm for me (5 spd, 3. 54) I make about 3-5 psi boost on a flat road, no acceleration, nothing in the truck. EGT runs about 600 or so. Downhill the boost goes to zero and EGT drops to 500 or below.

I can get get 25/26 psi boost easily and the max EGT I have seen is 1100.

I like the responsiveness of the 16 housing, even more so since my recent pump tweaks since the boost come in much sooner now... which is almost immediately at highway speeds.

 

[Ian]

16 cm

I changed to a 16 cm housing a couple of years ago, sure enjoy it. WOT is about 25 psi although haven't tried it for quite a while.

Main problem I have is when towing 7000lb 5th wheel, transmission temp is ok if I stay below 10 lb boost, will take short bursts to 15 lb for a minute or two, otherwise have to select a lower gear to keep the transmission temp out of the red. Tow in cruise when I can, boost gauge comes in handy to monitor what's happening in front and underneath.

 

[formula]

Drive pressure results are in:



From 0 - 20 psi boost, the drive/boost pressure ratio stayed just about 1:1. At 22psi, drive pressure was 25psi. At 24psi, drive pressure was 30psi. Couldn't get a drive pressure reading above 30psi because that was the limit of the gauge I was using. So, what does this mean? It seems that the efficiency of the turbo falls off considerably above 20psi boost. Now..... questions:

Would a 16cm help to reduce drive pressure? Does it even matter at these levels of boost and power? Hows about a PDR HX-35 with my 14cm/wg? (McGivern, any further comments about the PDR HX-35?)

Twins?



Sean

 

[dpuckett]

I have been contemplating the swap to a 14 NWG, mainly for the price difference. I plan to go with either Lucas or try the Bully Dog Extrude Honed injectors. I do a lot of towing, so mpg and EGT are a factor. But I want to get the airflow set up first. Dont like to have to watch pyro all the time. I am now running a 12 take off and a hopped up pump (1 turn) on my 93. WHen the set up was on my 92 (pump on 93 died, so I swapped them out, along with the housing), I never saw 900 post turbo, and that was at lower rpm pulling up a hill. Normal cruise was 550-600 at 70 on flat @ 6500ft. At sea level, I never saw 800. If I added more fuel, I just got smoke, and higher EGT. Makes me think the turbo may need some pepping up from Piers after 245K. I had thought of a 14 to get a little more kick and for the higher altitude, but didnt think about drive pressure. More thought required.



Daniel

 

[DT]

Anybody know a good place to get a used takeout HX-35? It's okay if needs rebuilt, that's no problem. Anybody want to sell me their's? About how much should I expect to pay for one?

Thanks

 

[Braveair78]

I forgot to mention the 14CM non-gated sticks out farther (i believe like the gated 14Cm... somone correct me if I'm wrong). I had to use some careful negotiation to get the downpipe in there. The heatshield on the downpipe does rest on the insulation shroud for the fan unit. I was worried about it barbercuing for awhile but, seems to be fine. Also I had to loosten the first exhaust bracked hanger to slide it back some as well.

 

[BushWakr - RIP]

Pfffttt... . you guys and your drive pressures... . you want drive pressures, take my missus with you ... ... . THAT'S drive pressure...

geeezzz, bunch O' wussie's... ...



Formula, thanks for those numbers... . I have a NW 14 in the garage that I'm thinking of putting on... hmmmm HX35 ehhhhh...

Somebody wanna come and help me get it off nascar marks truck??...



bob.

 

[nascar mark]

You will have to get past my camera with microphone that is watching the truck. If I don't hear you and wake up, you will have to deal with my 2 rottweilers, and if you get past them, then you will have to pry it out of my cold dead hands.



Ok, I'm seeing 42-43lbs with modest pump settings. Haven't tried turning up the pump with new setup.

 

[Bfulgham]

Ian:

Are you sure the fan on your transmission cooler is coming on? My sensor had quit and the fan wasnt coming on. After bypassing the sensor I kick the fan on with a toggle switch when the temp starts climbing on a hard pull with my 5th. wheel. Also noticed my transmission temp. was responding to increases in water temperature. Replaced a Napa fan clutch I was running with a Dodge clutch and really noticed the difference in both temps. The Napa clutch just wasn"t pulling any air. If my boost stays around 15 very long on a hard pull I have to shift down acct. EGT's .

Bob F.

 

[JakeWinn]

Was curious how to tell the different housings apart. Is there a casting number or identifing mark? Also where does a guy get the different housings? Do I need to go to Cummins or is there an aftermarket supplier? What modifications are necessary to install the other housings? I would plan on installing the 16cm if I changed. On changing pump timing, what is the procedure to check and alter if necissary. I have a B series tech book, but it doesn't show this style of pump. Thanks

 

[Ian]

Fan clutch

Bob,

I fitted a toggle switch soon after I had the external xmsn cooler fitted, absolutely for sure the fan is running, can hear it spooling down when I shut the engine off. Actually had to fit a good size diode to the switch wire, the fan motor whan it was slowing down after turning off the key, would act as a generator and back feed the power system and hold the fuel solenoid open. Result was that Mr. Cummins would contine to run for about seven (7) seconds after turning off the key!

As for the fan clutch, never thought of it being a problem but you may have a good point. Any quick test to see if it's OK?

Thanks.

 

[BushWakr - RIP]

NWvintageagparts,



There are a number of places to get different housings for our turbo's. I tend to deal with PDR. For a number of reasons, all personal choice you understand... one reason they are competitively priced and give TDR members a discount, two they will tell you if you're wasting your money, PDR is one of the only vendors still doing R&D work for us 1st Genners and helping with almost anything you can think of, three , they are just about the best people you'll ever deal with (I would also include DTT in that group too)

Remember this is my personal opinion and is not a specific endorsment by TDR.

The housings are usally marked in the casting, at the back on the lower end (hard to see) Depending on the year of your truck it is a 21cm, or 18cm. You can change to the 16cm without any mods to your exhaust but if you go to the 14 (wastegated or not) you have to trim your downpipe about 1 1/4" to make it fit.

The pump timing is a bit of a job if you've never done it before but can be done with hand tools. You do need to make some "ajdustments to a wrench or two though.



Ian, what kind of temps are you getting? "in the red" is a bit vague...

If you are seeing temps up in the 230*+ range when over 10psi boost, then you have some transmission issues that need attention.

The obvious/most common cause of this is slippage.

Have you done a full transmission service, including checking your line pressures at idle and WOT?

Since we don't have a Lock-Up convertor our tanny's have always run hotter than the new ones.



bob.

 

[Ian]

Xmsn temps

Bob, My transmission has 249,000 km on it, shifts smoothly and doesn't appear to by slipping although I've never driven another 1st generation Dodge. Just checked my records, has been a while since the transmission was service, have never had gauges on it. Has had Amsoil in it for about three years now. As for temps, at 8 lb boost and 100 km with the trailer in tow, 230 deg. is about average. A couple of minutes at 12 - 14 lb and it will be at 260 deg. Sensor probe is mounted into the side of the extended mag. sump I had fitted a couple of years ago. As for the transmission fan, does not appear to make a lot of difference whether the fan is running or not. A suggestion was made recently about maybe the engine fan clutch not working, must admit it's been quite a while since I heard it cut in, so all added together will not help at all. Noticed a couple of times this year that say in 2nd gear at 10 lb going up the Coquihalla near the snow shed, the engine would start to run hot, I figured it was because of low speed it wasn't getting enough air flow over the rad, faulty clutch fan could be the problem here.

Many thanks for suggestions/advice, appreciated.

 

[BushWakr - RIP]

:--) :--) :--) IAN !!!!!!







If I'm reading your post correctly, and you're seeing 230*F-260*F

in the SUMP :--) :--) ye gods man..... someone pick me up... ...



Ian the sump is the last stop before it enters the VB and transmission proper. That's after all the coolers and it's also getting some benefit from the DD pan too.....

My lord man, that is not right !!!!!!!

If you have those kind of temps at the sump then what in the "wide world of sports" is the temp at the cooler outlet line :--) :--) especially at relatively low boost number too...



Ian, like I said, if I'm reading your post right, and that is the location/temps your seeing, GET IT CHECKED QUICK !! That can't be right..... is your probe/gauge ok??



In my case under hard semi-sustained pull (empty) I NEVER went over 240*F and that's in the cooler line, which is the hottest part of the system. And that is with my mods as they are now with the pump jacked up higher than it is now... I was running 25 psi boost and working it hard in OD.

You need to look into this ASAP!

BTW, the synthetic oil has more friction modifiers in it and will smooth out shifts. It does this by allowing a bit more slippage, which can cause wear and heat. I'm thinking that this may be part of it, also you may have a restriction in your cooler line(s), coolers, or return line. Last thing may be the 'pump' itself.

Bob