Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) 191 delivery valves

[Moparsean]

I'd like to here from someone on these and if they are worth installing on my truck. Its a 97 12 valve,adjustable boost elbow,small fuel plate (i'm told),egt and boost gauges. Performance injectors (300 hp I think). I have the socket already. Oh yeah its an auto,but wicked beafy with a ats 5 star torque converter. I can get 35 lbs boost,but my egt's (probe before turbo) never go over 1100 even towing. so are they worth it? The truck seams numb untill i get lock up then it takes off. Trans don't seam to be slipping in 2nd,fuel psi good too. Would like to get more "mid range" torque when i'm towing my 5th wheel. oddly enough 1st gear seams to have good power,then it gets better at lock-up. Maybe I need a new injection pump? It does have 438K on it (original) seems to run fine/idle well,so i'd like to try the valves first, I can always swap them to a new injection pump. Sorry for long post! p. s. do these valve cause more black smoke or is it not much?

 

[arthr31]

Do you have stock turbo? I have 191's in my truck and they made a big difference in the smoke, like night and day. Or should I say day and night?
I don't know, but i wouldn't think it'd be your injection pump; if you feel the trans slipping, that could be stealing your power. Also check and see exactly which plate you have and where it is, position wise.

if you do go w/ the 191's, you'll like them (at least I did) but you'll definitely have more smoke since more fuel is being delivered.

Also, have you checked what your timing is? Maybe timing is off causing the mid-range power numbness? Good luck.

 

[Missouri Mule]

To get better mid-range you will need to research fuel plates.

I read recently that 191s don't flow much more than 181s.

 

[Moparsean]

turbo is stock, trans is not slipping. The plate, i have no idea on what it is. I should look,but if i'm gonna look maybe i should change to a ??? I have not done the timing as of yet,have all the tools to do so. I don't have a black smoke issue once boost comes up. If i burp the throttle I do get some smoke,but thats normal as i have no boost yet to match the fuel. The pump could be tired i guess. Is 438k unheard of for a original pump? Do the delivery valves wear at all? If I change the pump,go to performance pump? Who? I may try a different plate first,the break off screw is still in the pump,maybe they used a new one? Or were they shinning me on and it has NO plate? Who puts that screw back??

 

[JTroiano]

Grind a "0" plate and put 022's in and make sure you have the gov. springs in. Regulate your smoke with your foot.



Jon T

 

[ndurbin]

I'd figure out for sure what ya got for injectors and a fuel plate before you go adding anything else to the mix.



If it has the break off screw still there I'd highly doubt it's got anything other than a stock plate. Even a mild plate (#12 or #11) would smoke under acceleration in your truck.

 

[Moparsean]

I put the injectors in so i know what they are. I was told it was from 270-330 hp,depending on how the pump was set up. What is a 0 plate? Never seen one for sale. What plate should i go with? put it all the way forward?? I think your right,if the screw is there... i doubt it has a plate. I'm going to check/set timing this weekend. I have messed with the star wheel,that made a big improvement,as did the injectors,but its still missing something. I get no smoke when the boost is up. Just when i first mash it,but any diesel does that that is mechanical. So i think its time to look and see,i just want to have something in my hands if there is a stock plate. They are stamped right?

 

[JTroiano]

I think if you do a search you can find a picture of a "0" plate. People grind there own because it is a small arc. They fuel through the hole fuel curve. Probably to much for you but its cheap. If you have no smoke under boost that is good. If you have smoke under full boost I bet your EGT's would be real high. Smoke meens not enough air/oxygen. If you get your truck to smoke under full boost then you need more air. IE bigger turbo. Still at work, so not enough time to keep typing.



Jon T

 

[Moparsean]

Ok,I got to looking at that break-off screw real close up,it has been out as he said,cuz it has chisel marks on it where they losened it. Can i push that plate more forward? I vaigely remember him saying he didn't push it too far forward,he was afraid of poping the trans. I have since beefed it up. What would that do? Will i gain h. p. and torque or just change where the power comes in? He said it was a small plate,i'm guessing the smallest. What would you recomend without going mental if i change the plate??:confused. Should i get those 191 d. v. 's instead of playing with the plate? I think a zero plate is too much for me.

 

[Swamp Donkey]

I personaly don't think 191 dv are a good idea for you. If you have TDR issue #56 read the last paragraph on page 157. Joe D has done lots of testing on 12v and I would take his advice. I am considering taking out my 191's and putting back in my 181's. Good Luck. Let me know if you did not get issue 56, I see you are pretty new here.

 

[JTroiano]

I think you should look at the plate and slide it forward more and see if you like it. You can always move it back and what did it cost you? Your time. DV's are going to cost you money and it will make a difference but you can get the same bang by just moving the plate forward. The other thing is you can get a stock plate cheap and grind yourself a zero plate and move it around and see what you think. I have a "0" plate all the way forward with 022 delivery valves in 180hp pump with twins and 370 marine injectors. Its not to much unless you cant feed it the oxygen it wants. I really need to get govenor springs. It only pulls hard for a little bit and then de-fuels. 5th gear it pulls like a freight train.



The other thing is if you are going to get DV's. The 022's arent that big. you know you will always want more power.



Jon

 

[Moparsean]

Yes,i'm a power junkie. So what you are telling me is this... . Say i have a #10 plate. Its a auto,so it has the crappy pump,so it makes 220 hp and 550 torque when in the factory spot. moving it forward would increase hp/torque??Or change when it comes in? Moving it forward does what? I was reading my last tdr issue (thanks swamp donkey) and in a article they say i need a 14 cm housing to go above 270 hp. I hear contrictictions on the whole turbo housing deal. I think thats my limit right now anyways,can't afford a turbo right now. Would a # 6 plate be too much for towing? that would put me at 250/635 torque... . remember. i'm towing. Or should i get a # 8 and play it safe? that would be 235/605 in my automatic. Also remember that I have larger than stock injectors already,so hp would be a guess,probably make slightly more power. I see a lot of guys on this site with #10 plates,but they yeild much more hp when used in a 215 manual trans pump. I would love to rip mine (the plate) out and look at it,and say ok... its a # 8 or 10 or whatever. I have no idea what the profiles look like without purchacing one to see what i've got. I'm not convinced on the 191's so that ideas out as it yeilds no power according to the tdr dyno article. I thank all of you for your input,i may try to move that plate i've got anyways,if its the "entry level" plate I would take it out anyways. Is there a place to go to see the profiles? anyone got pics? You can e-mail me at -- email address removed -- if you have some!

 

[Ghost Rider]

What delivery valves are in a stock 180 pump?

 

[Moparsean]

I was told they are 181's'. So a #8 plate or a #6 plate for my combo?

 

[Moparsean]

Ok,got at plate today,the part # is 24242... that's a plate for a 215 pump right? It does look pushed forward. What plate should i go with in this 97 auto,towing,ttrans and converter beefed up. I'm thinking a 6,or would i see a huge jump with just a 8? going forward on the stocker yeids almost 100 hp? So would i even see a jump with a 230/605 (#8 ) plate? need help on making a call.

 

[JTroiano]

I dont have any pics. Its simple to take it out and look and from what I under stand by moving the plate increases or decreases the fuel along the fuel curve of the plate. If that makes sense. I had 181 DV's and went to 022's. I have also read that DV's wont increase power and alls I can tell you is I went from 60-65psi of boost to it pegging the needle almost back around to 0. (60psi gauge)



I guess all I'm trying to say is most guys always want more power. Yes that is sexist but very true. You can control power and EGT's with your foot until you upgrade the other parts that can't handle the power.



Dont take baby steps. It cost money. Well some people have a lot of that so do it any way you want.



Jon

 

[Jim Fulmer]

I personaly don't think 191 dv are a good idea for you. If you have TDR issue #56 read the last paragraph on page 157. Joe D has done lots of testing on 12v and I would take his advice. I am considering taking out my 191's and putting back in my 181's. Good Luck. Let me know if you did not get issue 56, I see you are pretty new here.

Bingo! He does not need bigger DV's! There is a time and place for them and he is not there. There good for smaller pumps or when you trying to relieve internal pressure on a high fueling pump, this matched with EDM'd holders.



No I don't run them, I run 181's!



Jim

 

[Moparsean]

So what plate to use? i tow,so a 8 or a 6? I have larger injectors, boost elbow,cold air intake,4 inch exhaust. . wide open,no cat..... so a 8 would most likely be better that my stock one that is slid forward? I'm leaning towards the 8. Is a 10 too small for a auto? It looks to not put out much on the chart.

 

[JTroiano]

Listen to Jim.



I still think you should look at what you have first and move it. Half hour of work?



I'll shut up.



Jon

 

[PRattenbury]

The best bang for your buck is going to be playing with the plate, putting in a GSK, and setting your timing up to 16. 5 or 17 degrees. DV's aren't going to do much between 181 and 191. Then save your pennies for a turbo. Oh, and exhaust manifold (if yours is stock it's prolly all stretched if not broken), exhaust system and air intake. Then you'll be whoopin' azz. Oo.