1997 2500 towing questions

[Peragro]

Hi,

I'm looking for some advice about my '97 2500. I'm the second owner and it's all stock. Has about 175000 miles on it.



Today I towed a 4 wheel trailer with a Mustang 2040 skid steer, bucket and back hoe attachment. It pulled it but it just seemed weak. I was only going about 15 miles with it.



Is this something that is too much for this truck? I'm not usually in the habit of towing much of anything but it took forever to get up to speed with it (most I went was around 55). Seemed to do ok at low speed and maneuvering around the yard and all. Tried dropping it out of overdrive and it overdrive. Didn't really seem to matter. I don't think I could have hit 65 without lots of open space and no gradual inclines at all.



Does this indicate a tired transmission? Perhaps the engine needs a bit of help with the horsepower?



Just looking for what other folks experience with the same truck - who knows, maybe I'm trying to pull too much...



Thanks in advance for your replies and advice.

 

[HBarlow]

You didn't list your truck's details in your signature but it appears you have the old slushbox MOPAR automatic transmission and probably also the standard 3. 54 differential gears. Both are bad choices for heavy towing. You could improve towing performance at slower speeds significantly with 4. 10 gears and a built transmission.

It's not the engine, it has plenty of power. The worst thing you could do is modify the engine before you improve the transmission and differential gearing.

 

[Matt42]

You didn't list your truck's details in your signature but it appears you have the old slushbox MOPAR automatic transmission and probably also the standard 3. 54 differential gears. Both are bad choices for heavy towing. You could improve towing performance at slower speeds significantly with 4. 10 gears and a built transmission.

It's not the engine, it has plenty of power. The worst thing you could do is modify the engine before you improve the transmission and differential gearing.

+1 The first thing to do is improve the transmission. Then figure out if changing the axle ratio (or ratios) need to be changed. Changing out the axle ratio(s) is a pretty big deal.

Welcome to the TDR, by the way. Put your truck information into a signature file like Harvey and I have done. That way, we can better help you with answers to mechanical questions. For example, my truck is a 4X4. Unstated in my signature file is the 3. 54:1 ratio.

 

[AH64ID]

I would start with the simple things first, like air/fuel filters. Check LP pressure and check the timing. Any one of those could lead to poor performance.

How is the fuel economy?

 

[SRay]

Peragro: the guys above are correct. The auto transmission has crap torque converters and the valve body is not really set up to tow anything heavy.



My 1997 used to be auto and I never upgraded the transmission when I put in a #100 plate in the pump which is way overkill on power. The transmission never held the power at all, even with the extra fuel, it sped up pretty much factory still in the first 3 gears until overdrive kicked then truck took off like crazy.



Even though truck moved good in O/D, the power was a torque converter killer as I couldn't even put 1/4 throttle down while hauling heavy without TC slipping badly in lock up.



I have already swapped to nv4500 but this past week we installed a 2006 upgraded Cummins TC in a 1998 CTD truck with same transmission like ours. He also has the #100 plate which killed his torque converter as to why transmission is being fixed now. The take off power is way better than his original TC which is garbage.



Right now the truck is in the process of valve body adjustments to go with the power so we're waiting for the truck to come back, then we're hooking up a 15,000 lb load to test it.



Chrysler never put a good TC in our trucks in order to keep power down, emissions in control, save on production cost and protect themselves from warranty claims from broken drivetrain components.



2003 and up have way better torque converters after going common rail which Chrysler can then setup the cummins better.



My advice would be to get a better TC, valve body work first before you kill your transmission from adding more power.



Also fuel economy will improve, towing will be better, transmission runs cooler, and overall much better performance.



Shawn

 

[Peragro]

Thank you all for your replies, it's kind of what I expected. First off, I added info to my sig. Hopefully it'll show up. In actuality I have a 1998 truck (12V) so I don't know why I said '97 last night other than it was late and had spent the day loading/offloading and playing with all the stuff that I was towing.



Slushbox is a perfect term for the transmission I have. It, in fact, feels like the thing is full of Slurpee and all my possible power goes to sloshing that stuff around - probably not the best description but oh well.



So what kind of options are there? I'm new to the whole transmission modification thing but would like to do things as inexpensively as possible. I'm not really interested in having a big monster of a truck but would like to be able to tow the occasional skid steer and trailer every now and then. Is it cheaper to just go with a valve body and torque converter or is it better in the long run to get one of the aftermarket rebuilt transmissions (e. g. Goerhing and the like). Not trying to start a "this transmission is better than ________" thread but would like to know what the options are. I probably will not do the work on this because 1. don't really know how and don't have the time to learn it right now, and 2. I don't have a place to work on it. The skid steer and the truck are what I'm using to prep a site to build a garage. There is a guy in town who had put in a shift kit for me a while back. He seems to do good work although I'm not sure what the benefit of the shift kit is/was.



As far as power on the engine goes, once the transmission is up to speed (punny, I know and bad too). I'm thinking a modified fuel plate will get me the extra HP/torque to do what I want.



As for fuel economy, right now I get about 18 in the city and 21 on the hwy. It helped taking the truck rack off; gave me about an extra mpg. How much would that improve with a different TC/valve body?

 

[Peragro]

I should probably point out that I live in the PRK and since I own a 1998 truck I have to go to diesel smog every two years. So, whatever mods I do need to be able to easily go back to stock or need to not be noticeable during inspection and not cause the truck to smoke a lot. I had smog this last Dec and it wasn't too bad. Basically, a bump test up to 2500 RPMS to see if there was a ton of smoke. Some smoke is ok if it clears within about 5 seconds. They also look for aftermarket parts which is why I'm thinking a few mods on the transmission or perhaps a new aftermarket transmission and a fuel plate will be ok since it's not really that visible.

 

[SRay]

Peragro: we used a upgraded 2006 cummins torque converter that was for the 48re but changed to work with the 47re smaller input shaft. It was only $650 (cdn) with warranty. Right now we are waiting to test it so we have no idea at the moment whether it's up to the task of 1,000 ft/lbs torque of 12v power. We do know that the stall speed has been lowered to the point of blowing large amounts of black smoke under full throttle load from 1st-4th. but it won't affect your smog test unless you turn the pump back down as you're just doing snap test. But the pump itself might be noticeable that it's been tampered with with all the tamper proof stuff removed to get at the plate.



The shift kit provides a slightly quicker and firmer shifts to avoid too much clutch pack slipping while shifting under load. More slippage is more heat and more wear and tear.



There will a little more noticeable feel depending on the kit.



We will be doing pump adjustments to lower the amount of smoke from our 1998 truck with this new torque converter.



Shawn

 

[Peragro]

Shawn,
That sounds like something that I might give a try as well. As for the fuel plate I think a nice healthy coat of dirt all over the engine and a strategically placed blob of grease on the fuel plate screw might help out. The guy last time didn't seem to be too concerned with cleaning stuff off. Just gave it a cursory look to see that there was nothing really out of place.

So with a better TC and valve body would that allow me to do what I want with the 3. 5 rear end or would that have to come out as well?

 

[Peragro]

Shawn,

That sounds like something that I might give a try as well. As for the fuel plate I think a nice healthy coat of dirt all over the engine and a strategically placed blob of grease on the fuel plate screw might help out. The guy last time didn't seem to be too concerned with cleaning stuff off. Just gave it a cursory look to see that there was nothing really out of place.



So with a better TC and valve body would that allow me to do what I want with the 3. 5 rear end or would that have to come out as well?

 

[SRay]

Peragro: I'm still using the 3:55 gears in my dana 80 as I have enough power to pull the load (26,000lbs gcw) as well as sled pulling (40,000 lbs) but that's with the nv4500. I can pull more but the factory clutch is almost as bad as the factory junk torque converter. So you and I are basically in the same boat but different transmissions.

I'm not sure about changing rear gears as I don't change them and have no experience to provide for differences. It's all depending on how heavy the loads are. but for a skiddy, several equipment, I'm sure the 3:55 is still satisfactory. 3:73 and 4:10 pull more heavier loads with better mpgs but that's more heavy haul all the time. 3:55 are better on fuel than 3:73 or 4:10 for daily driving and smaller loads than a dually dodge.

Yeah a little dirt here and there should be all that's needed to hide your mods from the EPA unless someone has a toothbrush to clean with. You can set your star wheel to smoke less per boost given. That should help a lot I think as I don't touch mine as it gives more torque under load with star wheel maxed out. (smokes like a diesel puller tractor)

Yes the TC alone will make the biggest difference with a lower stall speed, and a stronger lock up clutch. Valve body work will increase line pressure and shift better while loaded.

How heavy is your trailer and skid steer equipment all together?

You will see mpgs increase a little around city more as the locked TC is still the same as factory for highway.

The converter we used came from Matech Torque converters.

Shawn