1st Gen Converter search

[Power Wagon]

Well... It's been interesting.



In my search for the perfect torque converter, I've found some interesting stuff...



TCI has one a number of people are happy with. However, thier tech line seemed a bit unhelpful, as the person really had no idea how different it was from stock. Price is very good (low).



www.tciauto.com





DTT is the perennial favorite of some and from my limited driving in DTT equipped trucks, a very fine one, too. However, it's quite spendy. DTT has a policy of not releasing a lot of technical data about their products. I have driven an 89% equipped truck, and found it very responsive, yet it allowed quite a bit of rpm before stall - very helpful for those who are stock or nearly so, while still improving things a lot. Price? Out of my league.





ATS has a pretty good converter, one they have taken great pains to make extra efficient, as per my research and conversations with Don and Clint, for the non-lockup 1st gens... But it's MORE $$$ than DTT's. Seems unlikely to be "worth it" for purposes of my search.



www.atsdiesel.com



Goerand makes a lower-stall, high-efficiency converter, but Dave talked me out of it. It's only more efficient with only a slightly lower stall than stock. Conversations with those who have them confirm it, as well. Thanks Dave, for your honesty! His price was good, as I recall. It would probably be a great alternative for those who don't tow, and want lively performance from un- or slightly modified vehicles.



Victoria Transmission has one they even show dyno charts for...

http://www.victrans.com/cummins.html

I called Victoria Transmissions, and they'd be happy to sell me one, but will NOT ship across the border into the US. I'd have to drive up or have someone over there bring it across for me. Estimated about the same as TCI, for price.



The likeliest candidate at the moment, however, is Hughes Performance.



THey are a company in Phoenix and they build thier own, in thier own factory, and the guy I talked to drives a BOMBed Ford that tows a big trailer. They have also built converters specifically made for diesels up to 500 HP.



They have a variety of options, from the extreme low stall to their "towing" converter - and they are very familiar with DTT's, BD's, ATS's, and even TCI's converter (the guy I talked to would not comment on TCI... probably not a good thing for TCI ), and said they could build anything custom like any of them make, but probably could make one from on-the-shelf parts that would make precisely what I want, starting at a price equal to the best I found for the TCI converter.



www.hughesperformance.com



I'm probably getting an XFM variant.



http://www.hughesperformance.com/xtm.html



It will have a lower stall than stock (quite a bit, probably 300 rpm), higher torque multiplication, and higher efficiency than stock, as well. It is designed for a 1. 9:1 torque multiplication, which I am guessing is similar to what ATS and other good converters achieve. They will CUSTOM BUILD this converter - made to order - and will take a little over a week to get, once ordered.



Just thought I'd detail the process I went through when shopping for my converter... And perhaps add a source or two you might not have heard of before for you to do your own shopping.

 

[Snow man]

PW, I know you dont want to spend the $$,but in all honesty I think you know the DTT TC is the one to have. Beings you only have fluid coupling to work with ,you really need to get the right TC the first time,DTT tc's put the power to the ground, in fluid coupling. Quality costs $$,Id save your $$ until you can buy it,do it once,do it right. IMO,if you buy a milled stator you wont be happy. Anytime you own a DTT TC it is also tradeable if your power level or needs change,so you only need to spend it once. I would just hate to see you buy the lower $$ TC,and not be happy,then you are out the $$ you spent ,and the TC isnt doing the job you bought it to,so you stil need another one.

 

[Power Wagon]

As best I can tell, NONE of these use a "milled stator".



Hughes absolutely does not use any butchered stators, So also was the claim from Victoria Trans. DTT and ATS and Goerand have all demonstrated to me they understand what they are doing.



In each case, with the exception of TCI, I was able to verify by talking to someone who understood converter design and operation, that there were no butchered stators, and that each is a very high efficiency design, each build specifically to try to accomplish what DTT does.



Hughes, especially, stressed that ALL internal parts would be chosen on the basis of the total torque expected, what speed I needed it to "stall" at and that for towing purposes, the "at speed" coupling would the most efficient possible, and I would not be able to "pull through" the converter. I would have very little "slip" in the upper rpm ranges, unlike the factory converter. I would also be brazed and reinforced inside further that anything they believed necessary.



Now, I'm not trying sell anyone anything. I have not personally owned any of these. I"m only trying to demonstrate that there ARE valid choices out there.



Why, for instance, would DTT and ATS charge more? For one, I believe they probably do more on-vehicle research. TCI makes only ONE model - obviously compromising in hopes of just making "one fits all" that's better than stock.



Goerand sells rebuilds, again, built for a specific outcome.



Hughes has been making converters for performance applications for many years.

 

[hdm48]

Nice job Mark. It's good to know we have options. As you know, I am running the stock converter and I wonder how much more power one of these units would put to the ground. I am sure I am over powering my unit now.

Oh, and by the way, I did find your message and I will get that info to you soon. Sorry I droped the ball.



Dave

 

[JLEONARD]

Power wagon... it sounds like you did an excellent job of research. I don't have an auto but you kept my interest!

You need to go with the product you feel comfortable with, based upon the technical help that YOU receive (and not what someone else received 2 years ago)

It sounds to me like the "traditionally popular" companies have developed a poor attitude over the years and there are some good companies that have now stepped up to the plate to fill the gap... . and likely with a better product.

Go with your gut feel , don't listen to the nay sayers , and let us know how well it works out.

Jay Leonard

 

[paccool]

Great info Mark!



You stated a 1. 9:1 torque multiplier. Do you know what the stock converter has? Also, what is the stall speed of the stock converter? I seem to have a lot of converter slippage and have been thinking about the change also.

 

[JStraw]

Hi Mark,

Here's another to add to your list: Pro-Loc / SunCoast at http://www.suncoastconverters.com/

 

[Power Wagon]

Originally posted by paccool

Great info Mark!



You stated a 1. 9:1 torque multiplier. Do you know what the stock converter has? Also, what is the stall speed of the stock converter? I seem to have a lot of converter slippage and have been thinking about the change also.

Hi, Stan... No, I don't know the numbers for the stock converter, and I don't have a tach, but I know that once I put in the PW injectors and the 12CM turbo housing, it will rev quite high. The part that I was really uncomfortable with, is that when going down the road, it will reach nearly governed speed in any gear, with a trailer on behind, even when going quite slow.



From various conversations with a variety of people, I am under the impression that the stock converter has a pretty low torque multiplication, and that it's efficiency at transferring power is rather low, as well. I believe this was done deliberately, to "save" the transmission from torque spikes that would occur when you launch a heavily loaded rig on an incline, for instance.



To give you some idea, a principle of one of the main providers told me his converters range from 1. 9 to 2. 4 with the upper one being rather high stall.



A Ford engineer on the Ford truck site said the newest Ford with the 6. 0 and auto is designed for and achieves 1. 86. Various sources I read had statements that converters varied from 1. 4 up into the 3's, and that the 3's were for competition, designed for high stall launches in drag racing.



Here's a quote from Kondolay on that topic:

The information you are asking for is measurable by Auto Manufactures equiptment, the rest of the aftermarket industry does not have the equiptment to answer your question accurately so i am not going to guess.



Torque multiplication is dicated by the vanes on the actual TC stator and we dont get into specifications.

http://www.dieseltrans.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=1598#1598



Of course that's true. But it's also true that if you use parts already tested and measured, or follow the practices and guidelines already engineered, then you have a pretty decent notion of what the outcome SHOULD be, although with anything else "your milage can vary", especially when dealing with something as complex as converter design. Sometimes things like intuition can make significant steps forward, and without the testing equipment, there's no "proof". Thus, no way to accurately state what you have.

 

[danieljones]

First thanks Mark for the great post you have put together some great research. I don't want to sound like to big a dummy put what kind of trans do I have in my 93 auto 4x4 w/ od.

Thanks

Dan

 

[JStraw]

Daniel, If your truck has a stock transmission it is refered to as the 518 and from what I have been told the converter is around 69% efficiency which would co-incide with powerwagans post stating it would be designed as such to save /extend the life of the transmission which has an aluminum carriage. High HP/Torque will shred the part to pieces. I totally destroyed the transmission and O/D by increasing the HP. Sadly, I know have a billet and steel transmission/convertor set-up. The only part that hurt was the wallet:--)

 

[danieljones]

Thanks Jstraw,

So are you saying that increasing the efficiency I will cause more damage?? Or by replacing the TC sooner I will be extending the life of the trans?

Thanks

Dan

 

[JStraw]

By doing mod's that increase your available HP you are putting more torque on the transmission than it was designed to handle. This is the weak link in the drive-line, and needs beef'd up to cope with the added HP. The purpose of the TC is to apply the torque to the transmission. A lesser efficient TC robs you from utilizing the full available HP put out by the engine. Even in stock trim. So, in order to benifit from the added HP of doing mod's you need to replace the TC and either have the transmission's internals reworked or just replace the transmission with one from stock application to a high performanc/heavy duty one for diesels.



If you don't plan on doing heavy mod's, then adding a billet TC with a vale body (VB), and shift kit will net you good results from HP and torque that the stock set-up is loosing.



Basically it will come down to how far you want to go with mod's. But I believe that you should always get the best TC/transmission available as once you start to mod, its hard to stop You'll want more and more. And with the transmission taken care of the skies the limit from there.

 

[Snow man]

Powerwagon, I know there are a lot of options out there. I guess it comes down to do you go with a proven winner,that has extensive testing behind it,and a solid reputation for customer satisfaction,and service or try another brand which may be just as good,but without the reputation as of yet to back it. It seems like getting feedback from users of the other non lockup TC's mentioned is next to impossible,so either there arent many users of them,or they dont post here. Which brings us back to your taking a chance,to save some $$. If you are willing to do the labor a few times,deal with expensive shipping of 60lb TCs,and playing the waiting game,then by all means try a different brand,one with a proven record,and a satisfaction guarantee. You have found a few companys that make great TC's. I thought you wanted to put a TC in that you knew in advance would fit your needs and perform excellent,based on actual experiences of the members here. Good luck in your quest for a good tc at a great price. John

 

[soslow91]

Hughes Converter

Seeing as Power Wagon seems to have dissapeared from the face of the earth I went ahead and ordered a Hughes converter on monday without any feedback from him. I got it today and will post some results as soon as its in. One thing I should mention is they do only call it a 650'# converter which I'm way under with only a K&N,BD exhaust,and an18cm housing anyone who says the last one isn't an upgrade has never driven a 21.

 

[csnider]

I'm interesred in this Hughes TC as well. . I have to replace my rear engine seal (slight leak) and I figure I might look into a more efficient TC while I have the chance to change it out... I always have felt that a lot of power is slipping right by the converter . . I don't hot rod much, most of my driving is at freeway speeds with a light enclosed trailer and I wonder if I would gain mileage and cooler temps(trans& engine) with less slip in the TC. . Please let me know how the Hughes TC works out... ..... Thanks. . Chuck

 

[backroad]

For What It's Worth on Hughes Stuff...

They were my decision to go with. I'm still in the middle of my Cummins Conversion in to my 1987 F350 4X Crew Cab Dually. I have used several of the Hughes Products (although not for the Diesel), they have all served very well with excellent results. They also are very up front with what they build and will work with you on YOUR needs individually.



They set me up with my converter for tow some very heavy loads with my estimates of about 275-300 HP and maybe in the range of 600+ on torque. I did go one step further and converted the 518 transmission (yes, in my Ford) to a LockUp Converter. This was a must with my future plans to go with an exhaust brake.



I wish that I could give you more information of how well it worked out, but unfortuneately I'm still a couple of weeks away from getting 3X (my Ford/Cummins) on the road. I will definately give the feedback after my experiences. I also have the nasty habit of admitting when I'm wrong. But so far I've never had to (HAHA).

 

[soslow91]

First impression

Finally got the Hughes converter in but haven't driven very much with it yet.



First off when you put it in gear the engine slows down a little and the truck wants to move which it didn't do before and the engine doesn't speed up as much to take off.



When it shifts the engine slows down a few hundred rpm more or less depending on throttle. The shifts feel firmer and it feels like your accelerating faster the boost gage seems to agree with this a little more boost and a little less rpm for the same amount of throttle.



On the freeway the drop in rpm isn't as much as I had hoped unloaded and flat and I'm not real sure of exact numbers here due to speedometer problems that were only resolved just before the swap it is better though. More on this later I simply haven't driven it enough yet.



I'm going on a 6000 mile or so road-trip in a few days and should have some economy info afterward.



I'll tow something when I get back and post again with more.

 

[Thierry]

I will be having a DTT 91% convertor installed in my 89 truck Monday morning by http://www.jandhperformance.net, I have an appointment at 8am, hopefully this will inprove my towing as I will have traveled over 650 miles towing my 1700lb trailer so that I can bring back another 82 Dodge Crewcab I will pickup to convert to diesel, I will see how well the convertor works towing everything back home.

Talk to you all soon.

 

[GTX_Joel]

ANy more feedback on these converter swaps? I might need to upgrade my converter and transmission in my 93.

 

[Firstgenfanantic]

Buying a Hughes Converter soon

Well,



I decided to buy a Hughes 15XFM converter designed for the 1st gen A518transmissions. I have researched and read many articles on these converters and they seem to be a decent/good upgrade from the stock converter. I plan to do real light mods to my engine and pull a smaller 23ft' 5th wheel travel trailer. Is there a difference between the 15XFM and something else Hughes custom builds? I thought the 15XFM was the only converter they offer for the 1st gen A518. I will probably purchase this converter (15XFM) from Pace Performance. They currently sell this converter for $299. with $16. for shipping. Not bad!