Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) 2 cycle oil in fuel

[Dieseldemon]

Wait until some of the newer trucks get some more miles on them and then look at the inj nozzles I have already looked at an 04 that had 150000 miles and 4of the inj nozzles scored so bad they were only at about half power but you can believe what you want to (like you say you can't talk to a wall)

Why did we start having problems when they reduced the sulphur the 1st time

the only answer is lack of lubrication pure and simple.

 

[BigDsCummins]

I understand it just fine. The process to remove sulphur also strips out some lubrication properties. To compensate for that refineries add back another lube additive. If you want to add oil designed for a 2 cycle engine, be my guest. Just don't expect any miracles when it comes to extra mileage. I have probably burned more ULSD this year than you will burn in 5 years. Sulphur is a corrosive, plain and simple. Added to liquid it becomes an acid. When burned it produces a toxic gas, that is why the new fuel standards are in place. If you don't understand that maybe someone will explain it to you.

You can read this too GAmes. Lubricant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



But I guess that Scheaffer Oil(a huge diesel manufacturer thats been around since 1839), Cummins, Wikipedia, most types of gear oils and greases and cutting oils and all the other info I posted that you obviously didn't read is wrong and you are right. So whats the point.

 

[GAmes]

Here is the point. I have an engine with over 533 thousand miles on it. It still has the original injectors and injector pump. I have used countless gallons of ULSD since it was introduced. When the ULSD scare came out I did a lot of research, both on line and talking to a guy I know that is in the petroleum industry. Other than the rediculous statement in one of your links that stated out right that sulphur is a lubricant, which even you have said it is not, none of the others have even implied it. Yes, sulphur is an ingrediant in a lot of products, but not for it's lubrication properties. If mopar1973man had any real evidence of sulphur in some type of liquid, say 2-cycle oil with a dash of acetone and a little ATF, really worked he could bottle it and make millions. There is a reason why some legitimate fuel additives have a big label on the front that says "NO SULPHUR". I challenge you to find any commercial diesel additive that contains sulphur. Getting the picture? If you had done a complete search you would have found that prior to LSD (the only other one you probably remember) there was an insane amount of additives added to diesel to compensate for the high sulphur content.



Now lets go to adding 2 cycle oil. It probably can't hurt anything. There is even a possibility that it might improve mileage. But cost wise, there is no payback. Adding $3 worth of oil to 30 gallons is the same as just buying another gallon of fuel. Trust me when I tell you this. When you drive 100,000 miles a year, any legitimate mileage enhancer is used. That is why I have a PDR cam and advanced timing. If something as simple as adding 2 cycle oil had a chance in hell of payback I could have bought a lot of it for the price of that cam.



Sincerely,



The wall

 

[BigDsCummins]

Here is the point. I have an engine with over 533 thousand miles on it. It still has the original injectors and injector pump. I have used countless gallons of ULSD since it was introduced. When the ULSD scare came out I did a lot of research, both on line and talking to a guy I know that is in the petroleum industry. Other than the rediculous statement in one of your links that stated out right that sulphur is a lubricant, which even you have said it is not, none of the others have even implied it. Yes, sulphur is an ingrediant in a lot of products, but not for it's lubrication properties. If mopar1973man had any real evidence of sulphur in some type of liquid, say 2-cycle oil with a dash of acetone and a little ATF, really worked he could bottle it and make millions. There is a reason why some legitimate fuel additives have a big label on the front that says "NO SULPHUR". I challenge you to find any commercial diesel additive that contains sulphur. Getting the picture? If you had done a complete search you would have found that prior to LSD (the only other one you probably remember) there was an insane amount of additives added to diesel to compensate for the high sulphur content.



Sincerely,



The wall

It is totally pointless trying to explain what I am talking about to someone who already knows it all. But this is from the Wikipedia(online encyclopedia) of Lubricant:

Lubricants such as 2-cycle oil are also added to some fuels. Sulfur impurities in fuels also provide some lubrication properties, which has to be taken in account when switching to a low-sulfur diesel; biodiesel is a popular diesel fuel additive providing additional lubricity.



And this is from the Schaeffers Oil site:

Sulfur is a lubricant in diesel, so by lowering the sulfur content there may be a drop in the fuel's lubricity. There may also be a minor decrease in the energy content, by about 1%. This decrease in energy content may result in reduced fuel economy. To achieve the sulfur requirements for the new fuel standards, diesel manufacturers include an additive to keep the fuel flowing smoothly, and to prevent engine damage. A relatively cheap lubricious additive is biodiesel.



This is where mopar1973man got some of his info that you disagree with. It is from Well-Worth Products, a producer of lubricants and additives etc. for more than 100 yrs:Within the industry there is a lot of speculation, personal opinion, half-truths, guesses (nearly all of which are wrong), and



But what does an encyclopedia and a huge oil manufacturer that started in 1839 and a lubricant and additive manufacturer with over 100 yrs of experience know. Obviously you know much more than they do, so we should all just listen to you because you were fortunate enough to have a fuel system the has lasted that long and again I ask you if the people using 2-cycle are so wrong doing it then why did Cummins themselves invent the Centinel for the same purpose of restoring lubricity using engine waste oil which would be worse than using 2-cycle?

 

[BigDsCummins]

Now lets go to adding 2 cycle oil. It probably can't hurt anything. There is even a possibility that it might improve mileage. But cost wise, there is no payback. Adding $3 worth of oil to 30 gallons is the same as just buying another gallon of fuel. Trust me when I tell you this. When you drive 100,000 miles a year, any legitimate mileage enhancer is used. That is why I have a PDR cam and advanced timing. If something as simple as adding 2 cycle oil had a chance in hell of payback I could have bought a lot of it for the price of that cam.



Sincerely,



The wall

Well, if you use 1 qt. in a tank at $3 a qt. (which you can get it cheaper) yes it does cost as much as a gal of fuel, but in case you didn't know, 2-cycle oil is matter too, so it does take up space in the tank, therefore you need a little less fuel to fill up. So that offsets the price a little more, then throw in the 1-2 mpg increase that most claim and remember that a pump cost at least $1200 how is there no payback? You can buy alot of 2-cycle just for the price of the pump. I know you never replaced anything on your fuel system, but what about those unlucky people that have lost there pumps and other fuel system parts due to ULSD. Including me, I have a new pump now on my 12 Valve due to lack of lubrication which is why I run B20. If I couldn't get Bio I would be using 2-cycle or some type of additive.

 

[GAmes]

This is my last post on this subject. I've based my opinions on what I believe are more factual sites than what you have provided. This is from one of them;



Lubricity enhancing compounds are naturally present in diesel fuel derived from petroleum crude by distillation. They can be altered or changed by hydrotreating, the process used to reduce sulfur and aromatic contents. However, lowering sulfur or aromatics, per se, does not necessarily lower fuel lubricity.





Acidity Organic acids in diesel fuel also can cause corrosive wear of the fuel system. While this may be a significant wear mechanism for high sulfur diesel, it is less significant for low sulfur diesel because hydrotreating to reduce sulfur also destroys organic acid



L2_2_5_fs





PM me when you get to a half million miles and tell me how great that 2 cycle oil was.

 

[BigDsCummins]

This is my last post on this subject. I've based my opinions on what I believe are more factual sites than what you have provided. This is from one of them;



Lubricity enhancing compounds are naturally present in diesel fuel derived from petroleum crude by distillation. They can be altered or changed by hydrotreating, the process used to reduce sulfur and aromatic contents. However, lowering sulfur or aromatics, per se, does not necessarily lower fuel lubricity.

Are you kidding me, it says "per se" and "not necessarily" that it is not factual. Tell that to the people that have had problems with there fuel system. If Chevron is more reliable info than Cummins is to you, then you must work for the oil companies.

Acidity Organic acids in diesel fuel also can cause corrosive wear of the fuel system. While this may be a significant wear mechanism for high sulfur diesel, it is less significant for low sulfur diesel because hydrotreating to reduce sulfur also destroys organic acid

This has nothing to do with sulfur. This is talking about the organic acid compounds found in LSD that everyone knows is lower in ULSD.

PM me when you get to a half million miles and tell me how great that 2 cycle oil was.

Just so you know I just sold a '92 with right at 600K on it so I know what its like to go that long on just diesel. Apparently you didn't read any of the posts I had because if you did you would know I run B20 and not 2-cycle. But thank you for making that your last post on this subject, now the people that care about this info and there trucks can read it without you putting them down for doing what they want to with there own trucks. :-laf

 

[FYarcho]

I just have to call BS on the 533 thousand miles!!!!. I could beleive that you have 533 thousand miles. But that problem free????? That just raises an eyebrow!! But on the off chance that it is true I just have to say you are darn lucky.



But I have been on this forum for a couple of years now. I have read alot about the 2nd gen LP, and associated IP problems. Now maybe these are just the few, and there are alot of owners out there with no problems who just dont come and post here.



With your attitude and the lack of respect you seem to show for other members it seems like you would just say anything to make your point.

But again 533 thousand myself and I am sure other more experienced owners will call that into question!!

 

[CorneliusJ]

I would like your input about mixing 2-cycle oils. For example, if you put 16 ounces of Supertech Outboard in a tank of diesel can you add another 2cycle oil, say Pennzoil Multipurpose to the same tank. I read on another site that if you're going to switch oils you should run a tank with some cleaner before you change to another oil. Also, if the outboard 2 cycle has a lower flash point than the universal or multipurpose oils wouldn't it, theoretically, give better mpg's?

Thanks,

Jim

 

[FYarcho]

Well I guess we should make a post that ULSD Doesn't have a lubricity problem it was just a scare tactic by somebody so we would buy needless additives for our fuel.



Wow I know I'll sleep better now thanks to GAmes wealth of wisdom

 

[BigDsCummins]

I would like your input about mixing 2-cycle oils. For example, if you put 16 ounces of Supertech Outboard in a tank of diesel can you add another 2cycle oil, say Pennzoil Multipurpose to the same tank. I read on another site that if you're going to switch oils you should run a tank with some cleaner before you change to another oil. Also, if the outboard 2 cycle has a lower flash point than the universal or multipurpose oils wouldn't it, theoretically, give better mpg's?



Thanks,



Jim

As far as switching from one oil to the other it would not hurt to run some cleaner through a tank first, but I haven't heard of anybody else running a cleaner after switching to the oils on the list I posted earlier in this thread. Most people running 2-cycle say to not use more than 1 ounce per gallon, but as far as mixing the 2 oils I have not seen anybody doing that. Theoretically a lower flash point might produce more mileage, but I doubt it would be enough to notice. If you don't mind me asking why would you want to mix the 2 oils?

 

[CorneliusJ]

On another site I read that Outboard oils contained a higher percentage of solvent to oil than Pennzoil Multi-Purpose. And, the higher the solvent to oil ratio, the less the lubrication. It's not that I want to mix oils, I just want to change to an oil with optimum lubericity (I think that's a word). In light of how different additives are used in the same tank i. e. , Dieselkleen, AMsoil, Lucas, etc. , together with 2-cycle oil, I don't see why mixing 16 ounces of Supertech Outboard with 16 ounces of Pennzoil Multi-Purpose would be an issue. But I'm not an expert so that's why I'm asking advice of those who know more about this subject than I.

One thing I should make clear-I originally added 16 ounces of Supertech Outboard to one tank of fuel. After I added the oil then I learned of the oil to solvent ratio business and how other oils had a lower solvent to oil ratio. So, I'm not mixing two oils and then putting the mixture in the truck. If I made a mistake with the first oil, which is already in the truck, I'm wondering if I can correct the solvent to oil ratio for this tank of fuel by adding another oil.


Thanks,

Jim

 

[BigDsCummins]

On another site I read that Outboard oils contained a higher percentage of solvent to oil than Pennzoil Multi-Purpose. And, the higher the solvent to oil ratio, the less the lubrication. It's not that I want to mix oils, I just want to change to an oil with optimum lubericity (I think that's a word). In light of how different additives are used in the same tank i. e. , Dieselkleen, AMsoil, Lucas, etc. , together with 2-cycle oil, I don't see why mixing 16 ounces of Supertech Outboard with 16 ounces of Pennzoil Multi-Purpose would be an issue. But I'm not an expert so that's why I'm asking advice of those who know more about this subject than I.



One thing I should make clear-I originally added 16 ounces of Supertech Outboard to one tank of fuel. After I added the oil then I learned of the oil to solvent ratio business and how other oils had a lower solvent to oil ratio. So, I'm not mixing two oils and then putting the mixture in the truck. If I made a mistake with the first oil, which is already in the truck, I'm wondering if I can correct the solvent to oil ratio for this tank of fuel by adding another oil.





Thanks

Jim

It's not going to hurt to go ahead and run this tank out and then start with the better oils afterwards. As far as mixing the two together to put this tank where you would like it to be I don't see where it would be a problem there either. Here is the list I posted earlier in this thread, for some reason it didn't post the first time. View attachment 64925

Hope I was some help to you as I too am still researching some of this.

 

[CorneliusJ]

BigD,

Thanks for your reply. I read almost all the posts on the Cummings Forum on this topic. You, and others, have done a tremendous amount of work researching the various oils and additives. This has been a very interesting topic and an eye opener to learn what ingredients are in the various additives.

Jim

 

[TEasley]

One more time. This is the best $35 I ever spent. Thanks to ALL who have posted so far.



Tom

 

[Joe G.]

But I have been on this forum for a couple of years now. I have read alot about the 2nd gen LP, and associated IP problems. Now maybe these are just the few, and there are alot of owners out there with no problems who just dont come and post here. p

There are two kind of 2nd gen trucks, 12 valve and 24 valve. The 24 valve has the LP problems. The 12 valve has a reliable LP.

 

[WDaniels]

Ok, other than my very first post at the beginning when I piped in that I wouldn't use it, I've kept quiet and read this entire post and am beginning to wonder why everyone wants to run 2 stroke oil for lub instead of fuel additives specifically designed for our engines. It surely can't be for the cost savings because 2 stroke oil ends up being more expensive than, say a gallon of Howes for instance, Or Diesel Service.

This post sounds like when everyone went to unleaded fuel for their vehicles. All the pros and cons that everyone imagined. Oh well, to each their own.

WD

 

[BigDsCummins]

Ok, other than my very first post at the beginning when I piped in that I wouldn't use it, I've kept quiet and read this entire post and am beginning to wonder why everyone wants to run 2 stroke oil for lub instead of fuel additives specifically designed for our engines. It surely can't be for the cost savings because 2 stroke oil ends up being more expensive than, say a gallon of Howes for instance, Or Diesel Service.

This post sounds like when everyone went to unleaded fuel for their vehicles. All the pros and cons that everyone imagined. Oh well, to each their own.

WD

Well it is just like you said "to each his own", I am just here to show people what I have learned because I too was skeptical in the beginning. The main reason for 2-cycle is it has more lubricating properties than most additives. Plus, most additives contain chemicals that are known to be abrasive. When you consider that you can get one of the approved types of 2-cycle at wal-mart for about $6 a gal. as compared to an additive for around $13. 00 a half gal. , given the half gal of additive may treat up to 240 gal of fuel the 2-cycle is still going to be cheaper. The gal. of 2-cycle if used in the recommended ratio (1oz-1gal of fuel) will treat 128 gals of fuel, so 2 gals of 2-cycle would be $12 and treat 256 gals of fuel. It is close but the 2-cycle usually is a little cheaper plus treats more fuel for the $. But I have found alot of people running a mixture of both for the reason that the 2-cycle lubricates more than the additive.

 

[TEasley]

This is too good to let go of. What is cetane rating, and does 2 cycle oil have any effect on it? I sometimes use the Diesel Kleen grey jug that says it boosts cetane rating. I might be more impressed if I knew what it does for us.



When I read the posts of people adding 2 cycle oil as a pump lubricant , it made sense to me. I don't know if the P-7100 top end actually needs any additional lubricant, but any oil added to gasoline or racing fuel that can lubricate a highly stressed 2 cycle engine was worth checking into.



I really appreciate all the discussion and the links. I'm still working my way through them.



Someone on another thread was mixing the 2 cycle oil at a 200 to 1 ratio. I make that a pint for 25 gallons of fuel. Easy to measure, easy to extrapolate, should help, but not be excessive. I'm going to try it.



Thanks to all, and I'll keep checking this forum daily until we all move on to something else.



Tom

 

[DonTX]

In following this thread, I guess the question in my mind is, who says diesel fuel NEEDS more lubricant? Used motor oil would do the trick very well then, you don't have to BUY stuff, used oil if free. Don't give me that contaminated stuff about it either, there ARE filters and centrifuges. I know of trucking companies that have done that for years and millions of miles, not for lubricity as much as just a way to get rid of it, and of course it is free fuel as well.