Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) 2 cycle oil in fuel

[CorneliusJ]

I added 32 ounces of 2-cycle to a full tank and my truck actually runs better. It is way less noisy and runs much smoother. It must be my imagination, but even my transmission seems to shift better. This is the first tank I've added 2-cycle to, but so far, I'm impressed.



Jim

 

[WDaniels]

BigDsCummins,

But the 2 stroke does not have the additives that I need or anyone else that lives in the cold or cool weather need. 2 stroke oil in the cold up here would destroy your engine. Of course I don't know where you live but it must be nice to have it warm year round. Oh well, some day.

WD

 

[CorneliusJ]

Here, it starts getting real cold in about November, gets clear down to 60, brrr.

I'm no expert but I understand some of the 2-cycle's have anti-gel properties, but I don't know if they would be sufficient for AK.

Jim

 

[Hammer]

Hmm...

I read this and wonder as WD has WHY we would want to try this with better solutions out there. Sometimes cheaper is not always better and until you have seen a set of injectors damaged by using additives that are not meant to be used as such,then you may never understand. While I agree that todays fuel is alot harsher than what we have previously run,it in no way means I am going to run off for additives which may do more harm than good.



I am not a supporter of any particular brand and know some are better than others,however,I will say by using additives that are not meant to be used as such the only one your cheating is yourself. I have been on the business end of a Federal DOT mandated fuel check in both my big rig and my pickup. The fines for illegal additives or red fuel are way more than I wish to spend,however I am also a realist and know its your trucks not mine.



I will ask this one question for those who posted here about the pros of using this crap in your tank... ...



When you bought your truck you spent your hard earned money in that purchase. That same money has continued pouring into it yet today otherwise you wouldn't be posting here. IF after all the money you spent in mods to make it better than ever before was ruined by a $3 bottle of 2 cycle oil how would you feel then?... ..... Andy

 

[Turbo Tim 1]

I have ran many things in my tank including used oil, though I am not an advocate of it. Some over the road trucks use a system that continually uses crank case oil and replenishes it so it can't be that terrible in a properly designed system.



Now on to my real reason for a reply, My truck has 175,000 miles on the original VP that has had a Drag Comp on it since 40,XXX miles. This spring it started to have a lope at idle that wouldn't go away, it ran fine off idle, but when anything but stone cold the idle jumped around. I had some FPFF additive that I had been using so I put some in, it still did it. Next fill up I doubled the dose, it still did it, next fill up I bought some Howes meaner cleaner, it still did it, next fill up I poked a bunch of howes it there, probably 3-4 times the normal, it still did it. Then I was worried the VP was going to go soon so I said what the heck and dumped a fresh quart of straight 30 weight motor oil in the tank, it stopped loping right then and there and hasn't done it since and I've been dumping a quart in about every other tank.



Motor oil will burn just as good in an engine as 2-stroke oil, the flash points are very similar, 1 quart is a ratio of 140:1, at that ratio and the fact that my truck idles smoother I have no problem putting it in there, in fact I feel more comfortable putting 30W in there than I do some of these cheaper additives that are nothing but solvents and kerosene.



I don't work around over the road diesels but the plant I work at has a few diesels and large industrial gas turbines that burn natural gas and diesel. Each of our three gas turbines will burn approximately 18,000 gallons per hour of fuel oil at full load. We've seen problems with the fuel pumps on these machines when set up to burn the old low sulfur kerosene instead of the old low sulphur #2. The inside of the pumps would gall and basically eat themselves until they siezed after 200 hours of operation where on #2 they would run for years with as many as 50,000 hours. The scientific findings were that the kero lacked lubricity. These pumps only boosted the pressure to 450 psi, think of the effects of low lubricity at 24,000 psi.

 

[Bart]

I searched this forum for fuel additives, and came up with several people who use 2 cycle oil as a lubricant in diesel fuel. I never thought of it. Would like to hear more. Is it too good to be true?



Thanks, Tom.

I don't want to read all 44 posts to see if this is answered the way I think. Here goes. Why would you want to add expensive oil to an oil based fuel? Doesn't make sense. That's one reason that diesels last so long, and the break in is so long. Oily based fuel does a good job of lubing without adding to it. That's my 2 cents

 

[BigDsCummins]

The main reason some people do it is because of the loss of lubricity from LSD to the new ULSD.

 

[BigDsCummins]

This is too good to let go of. What is cetane rating, and does 2 cycle oil have any effect on it? I sometimes use the Diesel Kleen grey jug that says it boosts cetane rating. I might be more impressed if I knew what it does for us.



When I read the posts of people adding 2 cycle oil as a pump lubricant , it made sense to me. I don't know if the P-7100 top end actually needs any additional lubricant, but any oil added to gasoline or racing fuel that can lubricate a highly stressed 2 cycle engine was worth checking into.



I really appreciate all the discussion and the links. I'm still working my way through them.



Someone on another thread was mixing the 2 cycle oil at a 200 to 1 ratio. I make that a pint for 25 gallons of fuel. Easy to measure, easy to extrapolate, should help, but not be excessive. I'm going to try it.



Thanks to all, and I'll keep checking this forum daily until we all move on to something else.



Tom

The cetane booster improves the combustion of the fuel.

 

[BigDsCummins]

BigDsCummins,

But the 2 stroke does not have the additives that I need or anyone else that lives in the cold or cool weather need. 2 stroke oil in the cold up here would destroy your engine. Of course I don't know where you live but it must be nice to have it warm year round. Oh well, some day.

WD

Thats why earlier in this thread I said I have seen alot of people that run both. But this guy lives in Idaho and he has done alot more research on this, here is his site again (the sixth box down shows his tests in a colder climate):2 Cycle Oil Research

 

[BigDsCummins]

Hmm...

I read this and wonder as WD has WHY we would want to try this with better solutions out there. Sometimes cheaper is not always better and until you have seen a set of injectors damaged by using additives that are not meant to be used as such,then you may never understand. While I agree that todays fuel is alot harsher than what we have previously run,it in no way means I am going to run off for additives which may do more harm than good.



I am not a supporter of any particular brand and know some are better than others,however,I will say by using additives that are not meant to be used as such the only one your cheating is yourself. I have been on the business end of a Federal DOT mandated fuel check in both my big rig and my pickup. The fines for illegal additives or red fuel are way more than I wish to spend,however I am also a realist and know its your trucks not mine.



I will ask this one question for those who posted here about the pros of using this crap in your tank... ...



When you bought your truck you spent your hard earned money in that purchase. That same money has continued pouring into it yet today otherwise you wouldn't be posting here. IF after all the money you spent in mods to make it better than ever before was ruined by a $3 bottle of 2 cycle oil how would you feel then?... ..... Andy

I have not used it in my trucks because I have been testing B20 out in my trucks. But there are guys on this forum and others I am a member of that have been using 2-cycle for years and recommending it to all there customers and have never had a problem. There is alot more info on this topic over on the Cummins Diesel Forum.

 

[Joe G.]

I have not used it in my trucks because I have been testing B20 out in my trucks. But there are guys on this forum and others I am a member of that have been using 2-cycle for years and recommending it to all there customers and have never had a problem. There is alot more info on this topic over on the Cummins Diesel Forum.

There is a BIG difference between "never had a problem" and having a measurable (in contrast to a seat of the pants) benefit. In other words, can you measure the benefits so that they show a difference from a similar vehicle in similar service that does not use 2-cycle oil?

 

[BigDsCummins]

There is a BIG difference between "never had a problem" and having a measurable (in contrast to a seat of the pants) benefit. In other words, can you measure the benefits so that they show a difference from a similar vehicle in similar service that does not use 2-cycle oil?

Me, no I can't show you the difference because I too am still researching alot of this. The main proven benefits I have seen is better mpg but there are people running tests like you are seeking you just have to look. But from the looks of things I am fixing to quit researching for the simple fact that all I did in this post is give the guy that started the thread links to the info I had and since then there have been more people posting just to argue about it than anything else, instead of just researching it themselves.

 

[Joe G.]

Point is that there is no incentive to do any research if there are no numbers indicating any benefits when most of us have a very good running truck that gets good mileage. Better things to do with our time.

 

[TEasley]

BigDsCummins; Well said. While I saw no comparative data proving that 2 cycle oil is better than other additives, quite a few strongly believe that it's better than nothing. On the other hand, no one has posted any experience that shows it's bad, so it comes down to a fairly simple conclusion that a little extra lubrication can't hurt, and reasonably could help any pump, including the upper end of the P pump. All the replies were helpful, and the links you put up added many more people's experience to the mix.



I had decided yesterday to start using it, and haven't seen anything to change my mind.



Again, thanks to all, Tom

 

[CorneliusJ]

It would be nice to have a controlled study of those who add something to their fuel vs those who add nothing to their fuel but most seem to add something because they like the way it makes their truck run. My truck runs quieter and smoother by adding a little oil to my fuel, why is that? I have no numbers but I do have ears.



Jim

 

[BigDsCummins]

Point is that there is no incentive to do any research if there are no numbers indicating any benefits when most of us have a very good running truck that gets good mileage. Better things to do with our time.

Like I just said, there are good numbers you just have to look for them. There are tons of other posts in other forums that have the numbers. As far as incentive goes, mine was based on the fact that it could protect my truck better. That is why I started doing the research myself, I don't like just taking other peoples word for things of this nature unless they have extensive amounts of proof. Doing the research for 2-cycle is how I found out the B20 I use is a very good lubricant. But since you have better things to do with your time then don't worry about it anymore.

 

[BigDsCummins]

BigDsCummins; Well said. While I saw no comparative data proving that 2 cycle oil is better than other additives, quite a few strongly believe that it's better than nothing. On the other hand, no one has posted any experience that shows it's bad, so it comes down to a fairly simple conclusion that a little extra lubrication can't hurt, and reasonably could help any pump, including the upper end of the P pump. All the replies were helpful, and the links you put up added many more people's experience to the mix.



I had decided yesterday to start using it, and haven't seen anything to change my mind.



Again, thanks to all, Tom

Thanks! That is what I have been trying to say. There is nothing I could find anywhere proving that it hurts anything, but I found tremendous amounts of things proven that it does help and it can't hurt anything. So why do people want to argue the point? People on here and on the other sites are smart enough to do the research and know what they are doing. I was just trying to share what I have gathered in my research, and not push my opinion on no one. :-laf

 

[fest3er]

One can use motor oil in the fuel if one wants. But be aware that some oil additives (they affect viscosity, counteract combustion acids, et al) can be abrasive at the tolerances found in diesel fuel systems. Motor oils that have no additives (maybe non-detergent) may be less harmful to the fuel system and engine.

That said, one is best off using double-doses of commercial lubricity enhancer for three reasons. First, the lubricity of 'raw' ULSD is really almost non-existent. Second, fuel distributors do not yet reliably and uniformly (per 'batch' and per geographic region) add enough lubricity enhancers to the fuel to meet the specification(s) for #2 oil. Third, only commercially available lubricity enhancers from reputable manufacturers have been tested to ensure they will not adversely affect your engine and fuel system.

Excess lubricity enhancer will not harm your engine. So, until there are many reports that the fuel industry is uniformly and reliably producing #2 oil that meets the lubricity specification(s), you need to add enough to your own tank to ensure that you have enough lubricity for your engine regardless of how much lubricity the distributor has added, if any. You can use any lubricant you want, but you are best off using commercially available products unless you are certain of the veracity of your research sources.

And I will iterate that sulphur is not a lubricant. Not everything one reads on the internet is true, even when coming from people who should be experts. Especially, Wikipedia is not an authoritative information source. Saying that sulphur is a lubricant because ULSD has inadequate lubricity is much akin to saying that a frog's ears are in its legs, because it stops leaping away in response to a loud noise after its legs have been cut off.

Sulphur and sulphur compounds are not lubricants and never have been. The process employed to remove sulphur from #2 oil also destroys the lubricating compounds 'naturally' found in #2 oil. Do a web search and read up on the actual process used to remove sulphur from fuel; it will be enlightening.

I will close with something that is necessarily harsh, intended to provoke thought. When politicians research an issue, they usually only find data that agrees with their positions and preconceptions. When true scientists research an issue, they survey all the available data, weigh it all, and arrive at the truest conclusion they can, regardless of whether that conclusion matches any theories they might have posed. So. Are you a politician or a scientist? Or, in the immortal words of Dirty Harry, "Do ya feel lucky?"

N

 

[BigDsCummins]

One can use motor oil in the fuel if one wants. But be aware that some oil additives (they affect viscosity, counteract combustion acids, et al) can be abrasive at the tolerances found in diesel fuel systems. Motor oils that have no additives (maybe non-detergent) may be less harmful to the fuel system and engine.



That said, one is best off using double-doses of commercial lubricity enhancer for three reasons. First, the lubricity of 'raw' ULSD is really almost non-existent. Second, fuel distributors do not yet reliably and uniformly (per 'batch' and per geographic region) add enough lubricity enhancers to the fuel to meet the specification(s) for #2 oil. Third, only commercially available lubricity enhancers from reputable manufacturers have been tested to ensure they will not adversely affect your engine and fuel system.



Excess lubricity enhancer will not harm your engine. So, until there are many reports that the fuel industry is uniformly and reliably producing #2 oil that meets the lubricity specification(s), you need to add enough to your own tank to ensure that you have enough lubricity for your engine regardless of how much lubricity the distributor has added, if any. You can use any lubricant you want, but you are best off using commercially available products unless you are certain of the veracity of your research sources.



And I will iterate that sulphur is not a lubricant. Not everything one reads on the internet is true, even when coming from people who should be experts. Especially, Wikipedia is not an authoritative information source. Saying that sulphur is a lubricant because ULSD has inadequate lubricity is much akin to saying that a frog's ears are in its legs, because it stops leaping away in response to a loud noise after its legs have been cut off.



Sulphur and sulphur compounds are not lubricants and never have been. The process employed to remove sulphur from #2 oil also destroys the lubricating compounds 'naturally' found in #2 oil. Do a web search and read up on the actual process used to remove sulphur from fuel; it will be enlightening.



I will close with something that is necessarily harsh, intended to provoke thought. When politicians research an issue, they usually only find data that agrees with their positions and preconceptions. When true scientists research an issue, they survey all the available data, weigh it all, and arrive at the truest conclusion they can, regardless of whether that conclusion matches any theories they might have posed. So. Are you a politician or a scientist? Or, in the immortal words of Dirty Harry, "Do ya feel lucky?"



N

OMG!! Nobody said sulfur was a lubricant!!!! I never said I agreed with everybody on this subject. I was just trying to help a man with a question about it by providing the info I had!! My family has been in the machining industry for a long time and all I was saying is that sulfur in the EP gear oils and cutting oils and various others oils produces a metal sulfide film over metal when used in these items and they only do this at high temps. So all I said is it made sense to me what the guy was saying in the link I posted earlier2 Cycle Oil Research



This explains what I was trying to say a whole lot better than I can:

Oil analysis and lubrication learning cennter

 

[GAmes]

OMG!! Nobody said sulfur was a lubricant!!!!

I can't resist.



You personnally may not have said it, but a lot of your links do, here are a couple who's quotes you posted.







"It is totally pointless trying to explain what I am talking about to someone who already knows it all. But this is from the Wikipedia(online encyclopedia) of Lubricant:

Lubricants such as 2-cycle oil are also added to some fuels. Sulfur impurities in fuels also provide some lubrication properties, which has to be taken in account when switching to a low-sulfur diesel; biodiesel is a popular diesel fuel additive providing additional lubricity.



And this is from the Schaeffers Oil site:

Sulfur is a lubricant in diesel, so by lowering the sulfur content there may be a drop in the fuel's lubricity. "



Look familiar? You don't have a clue of exactly what you are arguing about. Your arguement that adding lube is necessary is only backed by links saying that sulphur is a lubricant.



ROTFLMAO



On edit; I really do have over 533,000 miles on the original injectors and injector pump, replaced the LP at 300k because it was ticking, it never failed. As stated, I only use additives in the winter, and then very seldom. You can use me as the control engine.