Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) 2 cycle oil in fuel

[BigDsCummins]

First off I want to apologize to TEasley and all the others interested in 2-cycle oil as an additive and not the subject of what sulfur does or does not do. All I was trying to do for you guys who are truly interested in this subject is post some of the info I have found so you too could research it. I do not claim to be a scientist or a diesel mechanic for that matter, I am just a regular guy who loves his trucks just like the majority of you do. I can't believe that some people on here are so immature that they feel the need to contradict and bash the opinions of others rather than just express their own opinions without regard to anybody elses.



These forums were designed for guys like us to come and talk to one another about things like this and come up with the best solution together, and not to argue and bash one another, whether it be to use 2-cycle or to not use it. This thread was started because of TEasley wanting to know about 2-cycle oil and not sulfur, so to stop all the talk about sulfur and get back on the subject it was started for I will say I was wrong for posting some of the things I did, I was just trying to prove the point that sulfur does help by forming the metal sulfide in some oils as I described in my last post.



Myself, I do not know if it helps or not in diesel fuel like it does in gear oils and cutting oils etc, all I know is what I have been told in other forums. Like I said I was just trying to help a man with a question by posting things I have found and I ended up just getting contradicted and bashed almost every time I posted something about it. I did not know it was a crime on this forum to share the info I had found with a fellow Cummins owner and lover. BigD

 

[fest3er]

BigD,

It's not a crime to share info. We all enjoy when info is shared. But some of us take exception when info seems to be posted as Gospel when it is, in fact, not.

In my first reply to this thread, I tried valiantly to avoid pointing a finger at anyone. I tried not to insinuate or imply that any one person was wrong; in fact, I tried to say that there might be nothing wrong at all with using a suitable motor oil in the fuel. I tried to provide alternate/different information.

I still don't understand why TDR members are so technically oriented (as opposed to the other two brands of P/U trucks), but we are. Many of us recognize the difference betwen scheiss, shinola and other substances. And we rarely shy from correcting seemingly misinformation. But we almost always try to to do gently, civilly. Some responses here may have been, mmm, a little harsh, but I don't think the intent was ever to make anyone else seem foolish or to put anyone down.

Those of us who are newer to diesel want to learn the difference between diesel scheiss and diesel shinola, between diesel arses and diesel elbows. And we should all always be encouraged to do our own research, regardless of how much we may or may not know. The more we all learn, the stronger we are as a group (TDR). And I will readily admit when I am wrong (or shown the errors of my ways). As Mr. Patton oft reminds us, we are most often our own warranty stations; as such, it behooves us to learn as much factual information as we can, so we can keep our engines and trucks running in top form. And it behooves us to share what we know with our fellows, so the group itself becomes stronger. But we all need to be prepared to accept and acknowledge that sometimes what we know just doesn't jive with reality. In some circles, such occurrences might be called 'brain farts'.

FWIW, I have 235K miles on my '98 12V. Blow-by has gotten to the point where I had to remove the filler cap to keep crankcase pressure low enough. I haven't drained my oil in 175K miles because I installed an Amsoil bypass system and lube at 60K miles; I haven't always kept on top of filter changes, and have rarely had time to keep up with regular PM; hence the worn rings. I put 83K miles on the original 180HP injectors before I installed a set of Piers' 'slightly used' 215HP injectors. After 148K miles on those, one of them needed pop-off pressure adjustment; they looked fine otherwise and I've put them back in, and the engine is running real smooth now. My P-pump has never been off, and has been spill-port timed just once. The valves have been adjusted maybe three times. In 9. 5 years and 235K miles, the engine has required only insignificant work. I installed a 3K GSK and slid the stock plate forward when I installed the purple VB and TC. So these 5. 9s *can* run for many miles and years without extra attention. 550K miles? Easily, if it's always on the road and PM gets regular attention.

Don't give up on TDR. It's still the best place to learn about diesels and the best place to find dieselheads to hang with.

N

 

[Hammer]

BigD...

While you may feel that some of us were harsh on you and "contradicted" you,in actuality you did it to yourself. Do you not agree that IF the use of 2cycle was or did aid in lubricity that there would have been more scientific results posted,good or bad,or it would then be a "approved" additive?.



My comments come from extensive testing we do at work with our companies rigs. Oil,tires,shocks,additives,EPA emissions are some of the things we do while we are hauling your freight around the country. The unit I drive is one that utilizes Bridgestone test tires,test synthetic lubricants,different additives(both fuel and lubes) and the newest EPA emissions which have yet to come into play and don't until come into effect until after 2008. In all the tests we do there have been NONE,ZERO,ZIPPO done to test 2 cycle oil as a lubricant. The manufacturers we do tests for are some of the biggest companies around and do you not agree that if it using it was the answer,then someone would have tested it,I'd say so.



The thing that cracks me up here is why someone would desire to gamble their trucks longevity on a $3 bottle of unapproved additive. Personally,I'd rather have my injectors and pump fail due to approved additives then know I did the dumb move myself which caused them to fail. Again,your right,its your truck and we had no business involving ourselves with this thread,even if it was as you said "trying to help a member get the info he needed". BTW,that info comes both ways,pro and con.



Thanks Neal for the info your insight was well put. I will leave this thread with this thought and its something to think about. IF your that worried about your fuel system and its possible wear patterns due to lowered lubricity and want to add this crap to fix that,what are you going to add to your motor oil or do for your motor with the loss of phosphorus in your motor oil?.



Oh I know...

I have some snake oil I can give you to help that and its alot cheaper than 2 cycle oil,its free... ..... Andy

 

[BigDsCummins]

BigD,



It's not a crime to share info. We all enjoy when info is shared. But some of us take exception when info seems to be posted as Gospel when it is, in fact, not.



In my first reply to this thread, I tried valiantly to avoid pointing a finger at anyone. I tried not to insinuate or imply that any one person was wrong; in fact, I tried to say that there might be nothing wrong at all with using a suitable motor oil in the fuel. I tried to provide alternate/different information.



I still don't understand why TDR members are so technically oriented (as opposed to the other two brands of P/U trucks), but we are. Many of us recognize the difference betwen scheiss, shinola and other substances. And we rarely shy from correcting seemingly misinformation. But we almost always try to to do gently, civilly. Some responses here may have been, mmm, a little harsh, but I don't think the intent was ever to make anyone else seem foolish or to put anyone down.



Those of us who are newer to diesel want to learn the difference between diesel scheiss and diesel shinola, between diesel arses and diesel elbows. And we should all always be encouraged to do our own research, regardless of how much we may or may not know. The more we all learn, the stronger we are as a group (TDR). And I will readily admit when I am wrong (or shown the errors of my ways). As Mr. Patton oft reminds us, we are most often our own warranty stations; as such, it behooves us to learn as much factual information as we can, so we can keep our engines and trucks running in top form. And it behooves us to share what we know with our fellows, so the group itself becomes stronger. But we all need to be prepared to accept and acknowledge that sometimes what we know just doesn't jive with reality. In some circles, such occurrences might be called 'brain farts'.



FWIW, I have 235K miles on my '98 12V. Blow-by has gotten to the point where I had to remove the filler cap to keep crankcase pressure low enough. I haven't drained my oil in 175K miles because I installed an Amsoil bypass system and lube at 60K miles; I haven't always kept on top of filter changes, and have rarely had time to keep up with regular PM; hence the worn rings. I put 83K miles on the original 180HP injectors before I installed a set of Piers' 'slightly used' 215HP injectors. After 148K miles on those, one of them needed pop-off pressure adjustment; they looked fine otherwise and I've put them back in, and the engine is running real smooth now. My P-pump has never been off, and has been spill-port timed just once. The valves have been adjusted maybe three times. In 9. 5 years and 235K miles, the engine has required only insignificant work. I installed a 3K GSK and slid the stock plate forward when I installed the purple VB and TC. So these 5. 9s *can* run for many miles and years without extra attention. 550K miles? Easily, if it's always on the road and PM gets regular attention.



Don't give up on TDR. It's still the best place to learn about diesels and the best place to find dieselheads to hang with.



N

Well, if everyone on here went about it like you have then there would be no problem at all. I can take being wrong or in this case some of the info I provided possibly being wrong but like I said earlier all I know is what I have seen in other forums. I do not claim to be anything other than a guy who loves his truck so there was no sense in GAmes smart @#$ remarks. It was not only disrespectful to me but to the people that wanted info on this subject. I will definately be more cautious in what I psot from now on to keep from anybody wanting to argue.

 

[BigDsCummins]

BigD...

While you may feel that some of us were harsh on you and "contradicted" you,in actuality you did it to yourself. Do you not agree that IF the use of 2cycle was or did aid in lubricity that there would have been more scientific results posted,good or bad,or it would then be a "approved" additive?.



My comments come from extensive testing we do at work with our companies rigs. Oil,tires,shocks,additives,EPA emissions are some of the things we do while we are hauling your freight around the country. The unit I drive is one that utilizes Bridgestone test tires,test synthetic lubricants,different additives(both fuel and lubes) and the newest EPA emissions which have yet to come into play and don't until come into effect until after 2008. In all the tests we do there have been NONE,ZERO,ZIPPO done to test 2 cycle oil as a lubricant. The manufacturers we do tests for are some of the biggest companies around and do you not agree that if it using it was the answer,then someone would have tested it,I'd say so.



The thing that cracks me up here is why someone would desire to gamble their trucks longevity on a $3 bottle of unapproved additive. Personally,I'd rather have my injectors and pump fail due to approved additives then know I did the dumb move myself which caused them to fail. Again,your right,its your truck and we had no business involving ourselves with this thread,even if it was as you said "trying to help a member get the info he needed". BTW,that info comes both ways,pro and con.



Thanks Neal for the info your insight was well put. I will leave this thread with this thought and its something to think about. IF your that worried about your fuel system and its possible wear patterns due to lowered lubricity and want to add this crap to fix that,what are you going to add to your motor oil or do for your motor with the loss of phosphorus in your motor oil?.



Oh I know...

I have some snake oil I can give you to help that and its alot cheaper than 2 cycle oil,its free... ..... Andy

There are more scientific results that I have seen but why post them? Everything I have posted thus far has gotten put down even though I was not trying to push my opinion on no one. I was just trying to give a man the info I had from other forums. Maybe I did go about it the wrong way but I did not know there was a government in this forum. If you go to other forums this subject has been researched to death and the end result is usually the people using 2-cycle oil. For some reason it is just rare to find it on here.



But in closing I am done with this subject because it has been nothing but a hassle, unless someone actually cares to hear something about what I have found in other places. I love this place, it is where I started learning everything I know about a Cummins and I am very thankful for that but I have never seen so many disrespectful remarks in one thread. It is to the point to where some people are afraid to post things because of starting an arguement including me now.



Why can we not just share our opinions without the smart remarks and work to a better conclusion together like Cummins owners should. We are all here for the same reason and thats to learn the best way to protect and modify our trucks safely.

BigD

 

[BigDsCummins]

I can't resist.



You personnally may not have said it, but a lot of your links do, here are a couple who's quotes you posted.







"It is totally pointless trying to explain what I am talking about to someone who already knows it all. But this is from the Wikipedia(online encyclopedia) of Lubricant:

Lubricants such as 2-cycle oil are also added to some fuels. Sulfur impurities in fuels also provide some lubrication properties, which has to be taken in account when switching to a low-sulfur diesel; biodiesel is a popular diesel fuel additive providing additional lubricity.



And this is from the Schaeffers Oil site:

Sulfur is a lubricant in diesel, so by lowering the sulfur content there may be a drop in the fuel's lubricity. "



Look familiar? You don't have a clue of exactly what you are arguing about. Your arguement that adding lube is necessary is only backed by links saying that sulphur is a lubricant.



ROTFLMAO



On edit; I really do have over 533,000 miles on the original injectors and injector pump, replaced the LP at 300k because it was ticking, it never failed. As stated, I only use additives in the winter, and then very seldom. You can use me as the control engine.

GAmes, I would like to call a truce because I am tired of coming on here and seeing comments directed to me. I did not make up all the research I have, I just found it on other forums and was told that it is what it is. If it is wrong then how was I supposed to know. I come to these forums for the same reason most people do and thats to learn what I don't know. I did not mean for it to be taken as I was saying that it was right.



I was just saying that it made sense to me because I know for a fact what sulfur does in gear oils and cutting oils. There was no need for your remarks towards me. If you go to other forums you will find this subject has much more exposure and research on it, so that is where my info comes from. You will also find alot of people using it too.



I did not know that me trying to be helpful to a fellow Cummins owner would result in all this. If I would have known, believe me I would have never posted at all.

BigD

 

[Howard Durand]

This is supposed to be a "Discussion" forum but it seems that this thread has turned into something else.

I have been following along hoping to learn something that might help me keep my old 94 running longer and better than I will. In spite of some of the "if you don't see it my way, you are an idiot" attitudes I am seriously considering trying a fuel additive. But I think I will use one that has been developed for that purpose by a reputable firm such as Schaeffers.

After all, I take my Lipitor and Accupril every day because I know that the drug companies are genuinely interested in my longevity.

 

[BigDsCummins]

This is supposed to be a "Discussion" forum but it seems that this thread has turned into something else.

I have been following along hoping to learn something that might help me keep my old 94 running longer and better than I will. In spite of some of the "if you don't see it my way, you are an idiot" attitudes I am seriously considering trying a fuel additive. But I think I will use one that has been developed for that purpose by a reputable firm such as Schaeffers.

After all, I take my Lipitor and Accupril every day because I know that the drug companies are genuinely interested in my longevity.

I am sorry it got turned into what it did but I really didn't mean for it to. You say you are going to go with the Schaeffers stuff, that is actually where I got some of the info I was basing my opinion on. Schaeffer Premium Diesel | Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel

But please feel free to ask any questions as I am more than glad to give you links to more info on this subject.

 

[Howard Durand]

BigD,

You started a good thread and information has been made available because of it. You have nothing to apologize for.

 

[TEasley]

BigDsCummins; I started this thread to gain information about 2 cycle oil in diesel fuel, exactly as you stated. Information is the key word. You provided plenty of information and started a lot of discussion. You nor anyone else ever said that I had to use the oil, but several people opposed or questioned its use for reasons that appear to be conjecture, not experience or data. I simply did what most of us do and made a decision based on what I got out of all the posts, pro and con, plus what seems to my one brain cell to be logical. As far as the "big brand" additives, I doubt if any of them would warranty a pump under any circumstances. Lubrication is life; The rest (solvents, cetane boosters, mystery additives, etc. ) may be really good, but lubrication comes first. No-brainer.



If I had decided not to use the 2 cycle oil in my fuel, I would still have appreciated your input and links. You invested a lot of time and research and contributed it to this thread and I'll bet that I'm not the only one who appreciates it. Like the man said," I don't have data, but I do have ears". Sometimes that's how we have to decide.



Thanks to everyone else who also had constructive comment; Tom

 

[BigDsCummins]

BigDsCummins; I started this thread to gain information about 2 cycle oil in diesel fuel, exactly as you stated. Information is the key word. You provided plenty of information and started a lot of discussion. You nor anyone else ever said that I had to use the oil, but several people opposed or questioned its use for reasons that appear to be conjecture, not experience or data. I simply did what most of us do and made a decision based on what I got out of all the posts, pro and con, plus what seems to my one brain cell to be logical. As far as the "big brand" additives, I doubt if any of them would warranty a pump under any circumstances. Lubrication is life; The rest (solvents, cetane boosters, mystery additives, etc. ) may be really good, but lubrication comes first. No-brainer.



If I had decided not to use the 2 cycle oil in my fuel, I would still have appreciated your input and links. You invested a lot of time and research and contributed it to this thread and I'll bet that I'm not the only one who appreciates it. Like the man said," I don't have data, but I do have ears". Sometimes that's how we have to decide.



Thanks to everyone else who also had constructive comment; Tom

It makes me feel alot better knowing that the info I posted did serve its purpose to help someone. Thanks!

BigD

 

[RRees]

Question: If my truck is running 2% soy diesel, would the 2-stroke oil be needed as an additional lubricant? I've been running PS Diesel Kleen since I bought the truck new last fall. I use the Grey bottle additive in the warmer months and the White bottle additive during the colder months. I also carry a bottle of 911 (just in case). I've gleaned alot of information from this group of people. Keep it up. Debate is a good thing!!!!

 

[BigDsCummins]

Question: If my truck is running 2% soy diesel, would the 2-stroke oil be needed as an additional lubricant? I've been running PS Diesel Kleen since I bought the truck new last fall. I use the Grey bottle additive in the warmer months and the White bottle additive during the colder months. I also carry a bottle of 911 (just in case). I've gleaned alot of information from this group of people. Keep it up. Debate is a good thing!!!!

I have read alot of info on all the Bio and I can say one thing about it and thats the fact that everyone (including oil companies) says that Bio has more lubricity in it than the ULSD. I am currently running tests on B20 in both my trucks. I know this is alot of reading but anyboby who wants to know about 2-cycle in any application it gets covered in this one.

First Time w/2stroke Oil - Dodge Cummins Diesel Forum

 

[GAmes]

TEasley, once again I ask, why do you feel the need for added lube in USLD. The last time I asked I was ridiculed and even called a liar. Here is the way I look at it, a little long, but bear with me.



Let's say I come home to a busted front window. I ask a neighbor boy about it and he tells me that "Tommy did it". I know that is a lie because Tommy was with me. Anything else my neighbor tells me is tainted, because I have caught him in a lie, so I can't trust anything he says.



I have yet to find a source that claims ULSD lacks lubricants that doesn't also state that sulphur is a lubricant. We have established that sulphur is not a lubricant, so anything else those sources state is tainted. The Cummins link to the oil to fuel gadget is irrelevant. No where in that link does Cummins state that ULSD is low in lubrication or even hint that the device is to add lubricity to fuel. I did find this on their website, there could be more.



Are fuel or oil additives recommended for use with the Cummins 24-Valve Turbo Diesel?

Fuel or oil additives are not necessary on the 24-valve engine, provided factory recommended oil and fuel specifications are followed. Consult your owner's manual for proper guidelines



Cummins.com > Customer Assistance > FAQ > Dodge



And this one, notice a complete lack of references to additives;



Cummins.com > Customer Assistance > Performance Tips



Oil companies have too much to lose if their fuel does not meet federal requirements for lubricity. The next time I run into a million mile Dodge/Cummins owner I'll try to remember to ask if they have added any thing to their fuel that they think is responsible for it's long life. If my engine is any indication I'm willing to bet that the answer will be no. Don't get me wrong, there are times that additives that are designed for diesel engines are beneficial.



TCW3 2 cycle engine oil is, and this is straight from the back label of Citgo Superguard Marine Plus Two-Cycle Engine Oil bottle, "Superior ashless formula scientifically engineered for all outboard motors; . premix lubrication . lubricant injection . carburetor type . conventional fuel injection . latest direct fuel injection

Exceeds warranty requirements for all makes and models of two-cycle outboards, especially latest high performance models.

Also recommended for other two-stroke cycle engines. "



Now if this stuff was beneficial to diesel engines don't you think they would be smart enough to market it as such? The same goes for ATF. If it was a bonifide diesel fuel supplement wouldn't it be on the shelf next to engineered diesel fuel supplements?



As I stated previously, I don't think it will hurt anything except your wallet. If you can come up with a study, by a reputable source, that shows that ULSD is in fact so low on lubrication that it will cause damage that isn't tainted by the remark somewhere in the text that sulphur is a lubricant I'd love to read it.

 

[Dieseldemon]

I have 327000 miles on cummins 5. 9 Dodge engines that I have been using 2 cycle motor oil in and have not had a problem with the fuel system I have also seen fuel pumps that have failed because of the lowered sulfur content which lowered the lub in diesel fuel back in the early 90s when Calif lowered the sulfur in diesel fuel if someone had a problem with their fuel pump during the first year Calif paid for their repairs we handled a lot of these types of failures at Cummins in Montabello Ca, I have also fixed a lot of low power fuel pumps with ATF in the fuel try telling some of the guys that had the problem it don't work. Just because big buniness does not use it does not mean it does not work they can't tell you to use it or they would have a problem with the states burning extra oil in the fuel, Calif outlawed using motor oil in fuel a long time ago we use to sell a blender to blend oil from the crankcase to your fuel tank at 20% but Cal passed a law against it so Racor quit selling the unit in Calif.

 

[Joe G.]

Jim, have you seen those kind of failures since the release of ULSD? Especially injection pump lube problems. I know there were problems with LSD in the early '90s. I think that was mostly seals and O-rings if I remember correctly.

 

[Dieseldemon]

Joe the ULSD has not been around long enough to tell the only one that I have seen so far is an 04 that the nozzles were scored so bad he had only about 1/2 power I changed the nozzles and worked the FCA valve and his power came back he is also starting to add 2 cycle oil to his fuel so time will tell

 

[Joe G.]

Please keep us posted. I'm especially interested in P7100 failures.

 

[Howard Durand]

I was in Moses Lake yesterday and bought a gallon of Schaeffers "Diesel Treat 2000". With tax it came to about $40 which would appear expensive except that it will treat 2000 gallons of fuel. That figures out to about 2 cents per gallon. At 2. 24 ounces per 35 gallon tank, the gallon will last a long time.

 

[TEasley]

Howard, 2 1/4 ounces sounds awful thin; I'm looking at 16 ounces of pure lubricant per 25 gallons, and wondering if that's too thin?



Dieseldemon; Thanks for jumping in. I'm personally interested in the P7100 pump also, but one of my sons-in-law has a vp44, and I'm watching for him too.



Thanks again, Tom