Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) 2 pusher pumps in 3 weeks! What can be wrong?

[DLausche]

Man, I am sooo frustrated with this thing...

Had it all buttoned up last night and figured the problem was resolved. Had 9psi with new Holley black pump. Thought it would have been a bit higher than that. Got in the truck this morning. 0 psi. Figured more air in the system so tried bleeding it. Bumped the starter 4 times. No fuel coming out the bleed screw. Grrrrr. Jumped in the spare car and headed off to work.



To top it all off this morning, I passed the gas station and saw the price of fuel. Unleaded - $2. 19, Diesel - $3. 49.



:{

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Had it all buttoned up last night and figured the problem was resolved. Had 9psi with new Holley black pump. Thought it would have been a bit higher than that. Got in the truck this morning. 0 psi. Figured more air in the system so tried bleeding it. Bumped the starter 4 times. No fuel coming out the bleed screw. Grrrrr. Jumped in the spare car and headed off to work.



To top it all off this morning, I passed the gas station and saw the price of fuel. Unleaded - $2. 19, Diesel - $3. 49.



:{

I really don't think you have a *pump* problem - never did - but you obviously have SOME issue within the fuel system that makes it appear to be the pump.



I have seen similar owner issues and multiple LP failures over the years, and sympathize with the owners - but it's a shame that the Carter pumps always end up taking the bad rap over situations they were not designed for - much like the VP-44 in the same design flawed system.



In point of fact, even in fuel systems where owners have replaced the Carters with substitute lift pumps, failures STILL occur - and I personally suspect at about the same percentages per thousand as with the Carters...



Perhaps the single biggest actual weakness of the stock LP is the internal fuel bypass valve. And where there are the restrictions as designed into the Dodge fuel system, that pump spends LOTS of time putting out PSI right up at its design limit, and at the ragged edge of cavitation - not a good thing for extended reliability!



I have seriously considered and investigated the prospect of an outboard, more advanced fuel bypass valve, but lack of fuel issues in my setup haven't caused me enough motivation yet...

 

[EDembowski]

Try it with the fuel cap off.

If that doesn't work, then bench test your pump. Put 12 volts to it, with this design of pump, you will feel it put pressure out of the outlet side of the pump. Depending on the results from the bench test, pressure, pump is good, no pressure, pump is DOA. You may want to check for a collapsed hose on the LP inlet side, or the standpipe may be defective/cracked. How much fuel is in your tank. That could be a sign of a bad stand pipe. I would try to rule out everything on the cheaper end first, it is more likely on the inlet side of the pump. Do you still have the Racor hooked up?

Good Luck!

I know your frustration.

 

[DLausche]

Thanks for the support guys. That was really depressing this morning. I tried again at noon. Bumped the starter to prime it about 6 times with the bleeder screw on FP isolator off. At the end of the 30 second prime cycle a bit of fuel would eventually trickle out and then the pump would stop.



I agree it is very likely not the pump at this point. From the pump to the filter and from filter to the VP is new 1/2" Russel Twist Lok hose and Russel hose ends. Don't see how those could be causing a blockage. Fuel tank is about half full. I left the Racor filter out. 10" of 3/8 fuel hose is between inlet of Holley pump and the stock steel line. The stock steel line is cut and bent inwards right at the front corner of the tank. I used one of those spring looking thingys (sorry, not sure of the name) to avoid a kink in the steel line when I bent the end of it. Issue is probably something inside the tank. I wonder if I did some damage when I blew air back through the tank pickup line. I had the tank cap off when I did that. I might try a length of hose from inlet of pump into a 5 gal tank of diesel tonight to see if I get pressure that way. I'm betting that I will. This will be really easy to test.



So, how much pain in the arse will it be to R&R a half full fuel tank? Spose I will have to siphon most of it out of the tank.



Thanks for the positive thoughts guys.



-Deon

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I really think these Carter pumps ARE capable of maintaing pretty decent PSI - as long as they can ALSO be seeing decent fuel FLOW/thruput at the same time - but in a near-stall situation as often seen with the Cummins at idle or lor demand, cavitation is a very real potentiality.



Here's a setup I used on my Carter pusher, not so much for cavitation elimination, but simply to reduce overall fuel system PSI, and to provide an alternate fuel path in case the pusher failed:



#ad




I have since removed the added filter shown, since I filter my fuel 3 times before fuel even reaches that point in the system, and I figured it was not really needed.



It would be pretty easy to incorporate an improved fuel PSI regulator into what I show here, and I have actually gathered all the needed components to do that - just not motivated yet, as mentioned further above.



Here's the thread where I explain my setup and purpose in more detail:



https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59880

 

[Huff N Puff]

Deon,Its in the tank Module

Thanks for the support guys. That was really depressing this morning. I tried again at noon. Bumped the starter to prime it about 6 times with the bleeder screw on FP isolator off. At the end of the 30 second prime cycle a bit of fuel would eventually trickle out and then the pump would stop.



I agree it is very likely not the pump at this point. From the pump to the filter and from filter to the VP is new 1/2" Russel Twist Lok hose and Russel hose ends. Don't see how those could be causing a blockage. Fuel tank is about half full. I left the Racor filter out. 10" of 3/8 fuel hose is between inlet of Holley pump and the stock steel line. The stock steel line is cut and bent inwards right at the front corner of the tank. I used one of those spring looking thingys (sorry, not sure of the name) to avoid a kink in the steel line when I bent the end of it. Issue is probably something inside the tank. I wonder if I did some damage when I blew air back through the tank pickup line. I had the tank cap off when I did that. I might try a length of hose from inlet of pump into a 5 gal tank of diesel tonight to see if I get pressure that way. I'm betting that I will. This will be really easy to test.



So, how much pain in the arse will it be to R&R a half full fuel tank? Spose I will have to siphon most of it out of the tank.



Thanks for the positive thoughts guys.



-Deon

Its not really hard,to use an engine hoist,and lift the truck bed about 3ft and do it from the top. Drop the rear bumper,remove ground strap,passenger side. Fill nozzle screws. Connectors at rear tail lamps. 6bolts hold the bed down.

 

[DLausche]

And so the story continues...

Worked on it last night but not fixed yet. Siphoned the tank empty. 'Bout 15 gallons worth. Hooked a new 3/8" hose to inlet of p-pump and into one 6 gal jug of fuel. No pressure. Will not bleed air from system up front. Removed 1/8 NPT plug from input side on stock filter canister. Nothing but a few little bubbles come out. OK, so remove line on outlet of p-pump and put on 12" piece of new 1/2" line with swivel fitting. Bump starter. Fuel pumps out of hose like a geyser. I stick a psi gauge into the end of the hose. 13psi. Pump is good I think. Reattach 1/2" line from filter canister to pusher pump outlet. Disconnect this line at the other end by filter canister. Bump starter. I get a bunch of bubbles and a little bit of fuel coming out. I think something is wrong with the new 1/2" hose that I put in from pusher pump to filter canister. Don't know how that could be but... I liken this to buying a new garden hose that water will not go through. Confusing. Did not see any obvious kinks or anything like that.



Ran out of time at this point as it was pitch black outside and had to get kids to bed.



Still might have something wrong in the tank but I am going to pursue getting it to run correctly sucking fuel from a 6 gallon jug and then reconnect line to the tank.

 

[EDembowski]

I'm just thinking out loud. Does your outlet line from the Holley pump go straight to the factory filter housing? Disconnect it at the filter housing and try the pump. Maybe it's something in the factory filter housing or at the VP inlet. Are you still using banjo fittings any where? If so, maybe one of the holes on a banjo fitting is plugged, it wouldn't take much. I went to AN fittings from Summit, far less restrictive.

 

[DLausche]

I'm just thinking out loud. Does your outlet line from the Holley pump go straight to the factory filter housing? Disconnect it at the filter housing and try the pump. Maybe it's something in the factory filter housing or at the VP inlet. Are you still using banjo fittings any where? If so, maybe one of the holes on a banjo fitting is plugged, it wouldn't take much. I went to AN fittings from Summit, far less restrictive.

They are all AN fittings. Only banjo fitting left is at the VP on the return line. The AN fittings on the top of the stock filter canister are from Scotty. He had ones made out of steel with a larger center bore.



Yep, I disconnected the AN fitting from pusher pump to top of filter canister last night and got very little flow out of it. A few bubbles and a bit of fuel. I expected it to shot fuel like a geyser like when I had only a 12" hose connected to outlet of pusher pump. This leads me to believe it is something in the hose or fittings from pusher pump to filter canister connection.

 

[DLausche]

Still frustrated with this

Truck has sat in driveway for over a week now. I filled the tank up WAY full (to the filler nozzle) thinking that would help me prime the pump and fuel system.



Well, The pusher pump generated pressure for about the first 5 seconds tonight and then 0 psi. I could tell when it was producing pressure because it sounded like it was under a load and so on. After that, no psi but still get fuel flow at VP and filter canister bleed screw but not very much. At this point the fuel level inside tank (I think) is equal or higher than the fuel pump inlet. Am I right thinking the only thing left is it is somehow sucking air on the pump inlet side and causing the pump to cavitate?



I will be ordering overnight a new pickup tube from Haisley tomorrow morning. Question about raising the bed to get to the top of tank... Can I loosen all stuff mentioned previously by Huff N Puff and then tilt or raise just the drivers side of the bed enough to get in there? Truck is sitting in driveway and I have no spot level or inside to work on it until my new garage/workshop is completed. Can I raise just the one side with a jack or my porta-power or will it not work to tilt the bed to one side?



Thanks guys.

-Deon

 

[Huff N Puff]

The safest way to to lift the bed is with an engine hoist or some kind of over head lift a good strong branch on a tree would do ,you need about 3 ft to 4ft of clearance to get the module out.

 

[DLausche]

Frustrated!!!

Truck has not been running for 6+ weeks now. Probably more like 8. Finally have time to work on it the last few days...



New 3/8" pickup tube installed in tank. -8 fitting and line from tank to Racor filter. Figured I would put the Racor back in the loop since I have no screen filter at all now inside tank on pickup tube. Bump starter and pumps runs. After 10-15 secs it starts generating pressure and sounds like it is working harder. Goes up to about 12 psi. Figure ok, this will work now. Got fuel to inlet of VP. Crank engine and it starts!. Runs for 30 seconds and stalls. No fuel pressure anymore. Bump starter over and over and fuel pumps runs fast and easy, producing no pressure at all. I take the -8an fitting off of VP and barely a trickle runs out with it disconnected and pump running.



So, I know the pickup in the tank is not the problem. Holley Black pump *should* be good since it is new - truck has never been running since I put this pumps on after 2 failed Carter pumps. Next thought is the Racor or fittings to/from are the culprit. I rule this out because I was seeing the same scenario (0 FP) 4+ weeks ago and had the Racor filter off at that time. I also installed a different stock filter canister head and a new filter element.



I'm at a loss as to what to try next.



Does anyone know if the Holley Black maybe is not compatible with diesel fuel? Previous posts indicated the internal pressure relief valves in the Carter 4601 pumps were not compatible with diesel and were sticking open. Could the same be happening with the Holley?



Is it possible that this 1/2" Parker Twist-Lok hose is not compatible and has disintegrated and plugged itself somehow. If someone has used this before with success that would be another thing for me to rule out.



-Deon

 

[Bandit2]

Deon, you do not say if you still have the LP on the block as well as one back at the tank. I sure don't know what might be wrong but will tell you that I mounted a Carter at the tank, AFTER it I have a Napa fuel filter, then to the OE filter, then to the ing. pump. Works great, but have only put on around 3000mi. on that set up.

 

[KLockliear]

4601's don't last on the Gen2 trucks. Been there, done that. Run the stock pump with the 4600 as a pusher and you'll be fine (that's what's in our pusher pump kit as well).

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

4601's don't last on the Gen2 trucks. Been there, done that. Run the stock pump with the 4600 as a pusher and you'll be fine (that's what's in our pusher pump kit as well).

YUP - that's been my home-grown setup for nearly 4 years now - no problems...

 

[CORed]

Deon,



Not sure what Parker hose I have, but it is a push-on type and is blue in color. It was rated for diesel. Not sure if that is the same as your "Twist-Lok", but I have ran this setup now for about 5000 miles with my P4601 and so far, so good. I have ran some Biodiesel thru it as well (B20) and pressures haven't changed from the day I installed it. I believe I have a pic where you can see the steel fittings and the blue hose (along with the 4601) in my Readers Rigs gallery.



I know 5000 miles isn't a lot as far as longevity goes, but I'll keep the 4600 as a pusher in mind. Unfortunately, I picked up another 4601 on ebay for a decent price as a backup so it will be awhile before I try something different (I hope anyway) .



Steve

 

[Huff N Puff]

My Suggestion is to recheck the whole system again

Start with two 5gallon containers one with clean fuel and one empty. Run a hose from your pump to the full container,while running the pump,use the other container to check the volume out of the pump. If you have no flow out of the fitting at the VP44 go down the system in sections till you find the restriction. If you have good flow when you are suppling the pump with the fuel container and no flow when you connect to the tank you need to go back into the tank. Did you run the supply line in the tank inside the original fuel module.

 

[DLausche]

Deon, you do not say if you still have the LP on the block as well as one back at the tank. I sure don't know what might be wrong but will tell you that I mounted a Carter at the tank, AFTER it I have a Napa fuel filter, then to the OE filter, then to the ing. pump. Works great, but have only put on around 3000mi. on that set up.

Stock LP is not there anymore. My setup is plumbed as follows now:



1) 3/8" steel pickup line into/through tank fuel module. Pickup is 3/8" from bottom of tank - no in tank screen anymore.

2) -8an female and -8 Parker blue twisk-lok hose (~4') to Racor 645. Shutoff ball valve* b4 filter. All fittings 3/8" npt. *Yes, valve is in open position.

3) -8an to 12" of -8 Parker hose to another -8an fitting to inlet of Holley Black pump. All fittings 3/8" npt.

4) -8an female to ~5' of -8 Parker hose. 150* -8an fitting to inlet of stock filter canister.

5) 120* -8an fitting from outlet of stock filter canister to -8 Parker hose to another -8an fitting at inlet of VP.



Adapter fittings to stock filter canister and VP inlet are 12. 5mm x -8an steel from Scotty.



FP gauge is plumbed to 1/8"npt plug on top of stock filter canister on the after filter side. 1/8 npt/an fittings with needle value shutoff inline.



All of the an hose fittings are the type where the hose just pushes on. The 2 barbs hold the hose incredibly tight and cannot be pulled apart. Goes together fairly simply. Not sure how I could have messed one up and have a plugged hose somewhere

 

[DLausche]

Deon,



Not sure what Parker hose I have, but it is a push-on type and is blue in color. It was rated for diesel. Not sure if that is the same as your "Twist-Lok", but I have ran this setup now for about 5000 miles with my P4601 and so far, so good. I have ran some Biodiesel thru it as well (B20) and pressures haven't changed from the day I installed it. I believe I have a pic where you can see the steel fittings and the blue hose (along with the 4601) in my Readers Rigs gallery.



I know 5000 miles isn't a lot as far as longevity goes, but I'll keep the 4600 as a pusher in mind. Unfortunately, I picked up another 4601 on ebay for a decent price as a backup so it will be awhile before I try something different (I hope anyway) .



Steve

yep, same hose as I have except I used 1/2" instead. Fittings and hose ends are steel Parker brand - the same as you have by the look of it. Good to know that the hose I have should be ok with diesel.



As far as the 4601 goes - yours is identical to the 2 that I had on my truck a little over a month ago. First one lasted about 1 week. Second one lasted one day. 3rd pump is now a Holley Black. I have yet to get it to pump and keep the truck running.



This leads me to believe the pumps are not the problem.

 

[DLausche]

Start with two 5gallon containers one with clean fuel and one empty. Run a hose from your pump to the full container,while running the pump,use the other container to check the volume out of the pump. If you have no flow out of the fitting at the VP44 go down the system in sections till you find the restriction. If you have good flow when you are suppling the pump with the fuel container and no flow when you connect to the tank you need to go back into the tank. Did you run the supply line in the tank inside the original fuel module.

I will try running inlet of pump into a 5 gal diesel container and go down the line from VP back, checking flow at each location. The pump should be able to prime itself from a diesel container on the floor (~1. 5' vertical draw), right?



New 3/8" steel pickup tube is about 3/8" from bottom of tank as best I can tell. I will double check this to make sure it is not bottomed out or something like that. The pickup tube runs through the fuel module and out the bottom. I removed all the screens and all the supply side fuel module guts from the picture. Fuel return line goes to the Aux supply fitting and is dumped on the outside of the bucket.