20% Bio diesel

[2013megacab]

From the fsm
♦♦♦♦♦ Use good quality diesel fuel from a reputable supplier in your vehicle. Federal law requires that you must fuel this vehicle with Ultra Low Sulfur Highway Diesel fuel (15 ppm Sulfur maximum) and prohibits the use of Low Sulfur Highway Diesel fuel (500 ppm Sulfur maximum) to avoid damage to the emissions control system. For most year-round service, No. 2 diesel fuel meeting ASTM specification D-975 Grade S15 will provide good performance. We recommend you use a blend of up to 5% biodiesel, meeting ASTM specification D-6751 with your diesel engine.This vehicle is compatible with biodiesel blends greater than 5% but no greater than 20% biodiesel meeting ASTM specification D-6751 provided the shortened maintenance intervals are followed as directed. If the vehicle is exposed to extreme cold (below 20°F or -7°C), or is required to operate at colder-than-normal conditions for prolonged periods, use climatized No. 2 diesel fuel or dilute the No. 2 diesel fuel with 50% No. 1 diesel fuel. This will provide better protection from fuel gelling or wax-plugging of the fuel filters.

I presume fsm is factory service manual, correct? If so, for what year? I understood that quote to be applicable to 2014 and up. My truck is a 2013. There is so d**n much information out there. Cummins website says they will not honor warranty in Rams using B20 unless in government or municipal service. The 2013 diesel supplement says B6-B20 is OK if the truck was ordered with the B20 option and oil and fuel filter intervals are observed, but lists them as 15,000 miles for pickups. I posted what my dealer service rep says. I read somewhere about having to add an additional filter and get the pcm updated to shorten intervals. It seems to be getting harder and harder to find petrodiesel. Pilot/Flying J carry "...up to B10..." according to the label on a pump I stopped at. I have put in about 5 gallons and driven off looking for petrodiesel more than once since I bought the truck. I'm not buying re-processed fryer oil (and a lot of people seem to) so I think I'll be OK but there's a lot of money at risk if something does go wrong.

Thanks,

Al

 

[Bob4x4]

The quote was from the -15 I am pretty sure it is the same for all the dpf years.If you feel the need to run bio have your pcm reminders reset to the shorter interval.

 

[2013megacab]

The quote was from the -15 I am pretty sure it is the same for all the dpf years.If you feel the need to run bio have your pcm reminders reset to the shorter interval.

Thanks. I'd rather just run petro, but if the trend continues it may be hard to find. So far I've been able to avoid anything over B5 except for a few gallons to find another pump.

Al

 

[BIGNASTY]

Thanks. I'd rather just run petro, but if the trend continues it may be hard to find. So far I've been able to avoid anything over B5 except for a few gallons to find another pump.

Al

Al I cant say for sure NOBODY knows what the Big oil companies will do, but since BIO Diesel cant be ran through the pipe line like other petroleum products its either trucked in or railed. I cant really see the oil companies adding more cost to an already costly additive that they really don't want to use, in the first place. Its a PITA to transport, Storage even in Calif the Bio has to be stored in Insulated tanks to prevent gelling. The BIO is added at the fuel racks just as if it were a Gasoline additive with the push of a button gives the amount called for. Its not like the Bio is added at the refinery and pumped threw the pipe to the fuel racks.

 

[2013megacab]

Asked Cummins - Got this back

I used the Cummins contact us form to ask about biodiesel and warranty, and the apparent discrepancy between the statement that the use of B20 is only approved in government and fleet vehicles and the statement that the use of B20 is not approved in the Ram 2500. This is what I got back today.

"Good morning George,
Cummins doesn’t own the warranty for the engines that are in a Dodge Ram. Chrysler purchases the engines without warranty so they can apply their own warranty and make any type of changes to the engine they want. So, I’m sure the B20 options components can be ordered, but it would be ordered and installed by a Dodge dealership.
Cummins nor Fleetguard offer anything that you can put in the fuel so you can use higher grade fuel than B5. We have filters that are made for biodiesel but the biodiesel can affect other rubber gaskets within the system and other components.
I’m not sure what to tell you about using your engine in an area that has higher than B5. Cummins nor Chrysler can predict which gas stations will have Biodiesel and which ones won’t. Biodiesel wasn’t that big of a deal a few years ago. Now it is showing up everywhere.
Thank you for contacting Cummins.
Mark
Customer Care Representative"

So, if this is correct, the moral of the story is that nothing you read on the Cummins site re:warranty means anything. Use of biodiesel in the Ram CTD is between the owner and FCA.

Al

 

[Bob4x4]

I used the Cummins contact us form to ask about biodiesel and warranty, and the apparent discrepancy between the statement that the use of B20 is only approved in government and fleet vehicles and the statement that the use of B20 is not approved in the Ram 2500. This is what I got back today.

"Good morning George,
Cummins doesn’t own the warranty for the engines that are in a Dodge Ram. Chrysler purchases the engines without warranty so they can apply their own warranty and make any type of changes to the engine they want. So, I’m sure the B20 options components can be ordered, but it would be ordered and installed by a Dodge dealership.
Cummins nor Fleetguard offer anything that you can put in the fuel so you can use higher grade fuel than B5. We have filters that are made for biodiesel but the biodiesel can affect other rubber gaskets within the system and other components.
I’m not sure what to tell you about using your engine in an area that has higher than B5. Cummins nor Chrysler can predict which gas stations will have Biodiesel and which ones won’t. Biodiesel wasn’t that big of a deal a few years ago. Now it is showing up everywhere.
Thank you for contacting Cummins.
Mark
Customer Care Representative"

So, if this is correct, the moral of the story is that nothing you read on the Cummins site re:warranty means anything. Use of biodiesel in the Ram CTD is between the owner and FCA.

Al

It has always been that way,

 

[Don in Missouri]

You can view all the OEM support statements on biodiesel at http://biodiesel.org/using-biodiesel/oem-information/oem-statement-summary-chart . Cummins does indeed approve B20, and so does Ram.

 

[Tuesdak]

I used the Cummins contact us form to ask about biodiesel and warranty, and the apparent discrepancy between the statement that the use of B20 is only approved in government and fleet vehicles and the statement that the use of B20 is not approved in the Ram 2500. This is what I got back today.

"Good morning George,
Cummins doesn’t own the warranty for the engines that are in a Dodge Ram. Chrysler purchases the engines without warranty so they can apply their own warranty and make any type of changes to the engine they want. So, I’m sure the B20 options components can be ordered, but it would be ordered and installed by a Dodge dealership.
Cummins nor Fleetguard offer anything that you can put in the fuel so you can use higher grade fuel than B5. We have filters that are made for biodiesel but the biodiesel can affect other rubber gaskets within the system and other components.
I’m not sure what to tell you about using your engine in an area that has higher than B5. Cummins nor Chrysler can predict which gas stations will have Biodiesel and which ones won’t. Biodiesel wasn’t that big of a deal a few years ago. Now it is showing up everywhere.
Thank you for contacting Cummins.
Mark
Customer Care Representative"

So, if this is correct, the moral of the story is that nothing you read on the Cummins site re:warranty means anything. Use of biodiesel in the Ram CTD is between the owner and FCA.

Al

Al, this isn't at you at all.

Can Cummins be anymore vague?
"but the biodiesel can affect other rubber gaskets within the system and other components." I suggest you ask the clueless dips#it to name specific components on the Cummins that is affected and what parts Chrysler changes, or can be ordered, for higher 20% bio. Tell Cummins to be specific or STFU!

FCA has an "out" for their warranty putting their "worthless filter system design" on you by expecting pristine diesel fuel to be used. Bad fuel = voided warranty claim. As Proven since GM's 5.7L Olds issues America's diesel is anything but and further proven by the standard practice of massive dual diesel filters/separators truckers run.

The Duramax we ran using similar injection equipment as the HPCR Cummins did not have any rubber related issues using B99 - more or less straight Biodiesel. The primer did have to be resealed, but, it's a known weak point anyway. Again the unsaid reasons for not using high % of biodiesel is:
1) Higher NOx emissions when trying to certify the engine to EPA specs. This is not your local lax emissions test station.
2) Cold weather gelling. (Depends on where you live and temps as to the % you can run.)
3) Engine oil dilution.
4) Extra water the Biodiesel adsorbs making the cheap factory filter/separator setups useless.
5) Possible Lift pump issues as most OEM lift pumps have the valves eaten out by leftover Meth. (Not a Duramax problem as they don't have one.)
6) Bugs in fuel episodes made 1000X worse with bio.
7) Shorter fuel storage life. (Just look at the issues seldom used boats have with bio!)
8) 10% less MPG on high % of biodiesel.

Over time Bio is harder on seals and rubber hoses. But, B5 'tolerance' may be stock rubber parts with reduced life being the trade off. Hoses get soft and can collapse or kink sooner than on #2 diesel. For example Modern replacement 1/8 Fuel return hoses sold for the injectors on 6.2/6.5 diesels fail and leak faster with bio use than the OEM hoses from the 90's.

Come to think of it the biggest issue I ran into was fuel level sensor failures - so common on #2 or gasoline cars that I can't for sure say it was 100% a bio problem. Better sensor designs are out there, but, OEM's don't use them. (Aside of bugs in fuel episode wiping out an entire injection system from the tank to the injector tips and everything in between.)

At the end of the day Biodiesel is a EPA certified road fuel. The OEM's are putting us between the Government and their own refusal or inability to deal with Biodiesel. (The NOx emissions difference is an extreme OEM problem to attempt to solve for sure.) By selling higher % of Biodiesel the Government is quietly decertifying diesel engines that were not designed and certified on Biodiesel due to higher NOx emissions on Biodiesel. Sure Soot is less on Bio but all emissions are tightly monitored/tested for an engine to be EPA certified.

Helpful hint: make sure your insurance company covers fuel system damage as I had American Family worm out of a bugs in fuel claim because 'it happened over time'. Needless to say I am no longer with them.

 

[Don in Missouri]

Warrantees do not cover fuel related issues and OEMs are prohibited from voiding a warranty based on the type or brand of fuel that you use. Dealers often stretch the truth on this fact and are often times out of touch with the official position from the manufacturer. Pretty much every manufacturer now supports B20. The holdouts include PACCAR (who approves B20 in Cummins and Cat engines, but is still evaluating their new PACCAR engine) , BMW, and Mercedes Benz who have yet to endorse blends above B10.

OEM positions are changing over time and generally support increasing use of biodiesel.

NOx emission aren't a significant issue. B20 does not increase NOx relative to USEPA-approved, 49-state diesel. California is limiting biodiesel blends for the next few years to make sure that NOx emission aren't exceeded in CARB diesel. NOx emissions become moot when the current (2010 and later) vehicles with NOx control penetrate the market.

Using biodiesel in cold weather is not different than using diesel fuel in cold weather. The blend of #2 fuel and #1 grade fuel (and additives) needs to be appropriate for the weather conditions. There is now a spec for #1 grade biodiesel.

While it is true that biodiesel has 10% less energy per gallon, I would not extrapolate that to mean 10% less fuel economy. It is very likely that biodiesel burns more efficiently and can overcome the initial deficit in energy content. A measure of this is the decrease in tailpipe emissions of particulate matter (PM) and unburned hydrocarbons when using biodiesel. That pollution coming out of the tailpipe is unburned diesel fuel. Biodiesel may start out with less energy in the tank, but it is possible to end up putting more energy to the ground through more efficient combustion. Because biodiesel produces less PM DPF regeneration and soot from biodiesel burns off at a lower temperature requiring less fuel for regeneration.

A standardized test is the only real way to compare the MPG between two different fuels. Anecdotal evidence has too many outside factors that skew the results when measuring such a small difference in performance. I'll share mine anyway. On a 3,000 mile test, I recently got 30-32 mpg on B20 and 26-28 mpg on diesel fuel. This was in a '03 Grand Cherokee with European spec 2.7L Mercedes 5 cylinder (Sprinter engine). Even though this test was conducted in August, I suspect my diesel results may be skewed downward by winter blend diesel fuel that might have already contained some #1 diesel where I filled up in North Dakota at the beginning of harvest season.

With the North Dakota exception mentioned above, I have been running nothing but B20 and higher blends for over 8 years. My '92 Dodge has over 400,000 miles on it. Our TDI Jetta has 227,000 miles on it. I change my fuel filter every October, and I've never had an issue. I did have some aftermarket parts store hoses that softened after running B100 straight for about six month. The OEM hoses and seals have not given me any problems.

When You buy fuel hose over the counter, you should specify Gates Barricade or equivalent. If you don't ask for quality stuff, you often get cheap crap. The Barricade hose and most OEM equipment will hold up fine.

 

[Tuesdak]

Firsthand experience: At different times I ran two different ~550 mile daily routes with two different trucks. Same route and same load every weekday. We would frequently run out of Biodiesel and run #2 due to supplier shortages of B99. Firsthand B99 when towing balls to the wall flat out due to the grades was 10% reduction of MPG in the 10MPG range we were at towing. So my firsthand experience is a loss of 10% of MPG when it mattered the most for my daily bottom line. Repeatable 10% MPG loss and watched it time and again. Biggest reason we ran the B99 was convenience of it being delivered free to an area we fueled up where #2 was more expensive. Without the "issues" it was slightly more expensive to run price per gal vs. #2 with CPM figured in. (Had to burn more of the cheaper B99 to do the 550 miles and that erased the savings and then some.) With the "issues" I had the stuff was a complete, black hole for repair cash, disaster. (I am an expert at dropping and cleaning out my fuel tank from the practice the bad B99 fuel gave me.)

As an aside I could tell the difference on the fuel as the 2008 Duramax would start to "ping" more as things got hot on a specific mild grade and the ignition delay went down. (Aka like adding advance of the timing due to things being hot.) The B99 would have a louder ping than #2. It really needed to downshift out of double overdrive to keep ECT down and have a way to retard timing some when things got hot, but, another discussion. The point here is the factory timing was at the razor's edge of the engine fighting itself from too much total timing trying to drive it backwards. The B99 with a different ignition delay was worse and could have contributed to it's own MPG loss. We looked at, but, never followed through with a custom tune to retard the timing for B99.

 

[HSpiering]

Well I asked what would happen with B-20 Now I'm running into a new problem. I had four stations I would buy diesel. I see the one in Woodburn OR is now B-20. Three out of four are now B-20. I have to try my last place to see what they have. Looks like every station is going to B-20. Maybe something to doing it to make more money??

 

[Bob4x4]

Lol comparing a 92 dodge to the current models,someone is out of touch with reality