2010 Comments / Urea SCR

[Shelby Griggs]

Probably the biggest news for at least the C&C 2010 trucks is the urea SCR, looks like that DID make the final cut. I don't see this mentioned for the pickups.



From the C&C press release on the home page: "Engineered to meet commercial demands while providing superior trailer towing, acceleration and throttle response, the 6. 7-liter engine is cleaner with a reduction in particulates and nitrogen oxide (NOx) that comply with both the 50-state heavy-duty emission standards and 2010 diesel emissions compliance thanks to an all-new diesel exhaust fluid injection system with urea injection Selective Catalyst Reduction (SCR) technology. "



"In addition, the vehicle's new urea system is smartly placed in unused space, out of the way and under the cab for added upfitter convenience. "





Is that going to be a pain? Who knows, but it is a change from just driving it, another thing to keep topped off.



SHG

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

HMMmm - I too was wondering about some of the emissions stuff on the '10 trucks - not real crazy about the urea bit, and it sure seems like the various added emissions stuff each provide their own varying levels of failures and maintenance.



I haven't been following what Ford and GM are doing in the emissions area in their trucks - wonder if it's the same patchwork quilt of prospective problems?

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

There was NO information on Ford and GM's 2010 solution at the show - each of them only had one 3/4 ton truck there and they were '09's. Read my article for information on the urea system.

 

[pcarlson]

I am actually excited about the urea IF it means that the timing is dialed back into the engine, reducing particulates and DPF issues and possible mileage increases.



We can cross our fingers...





Gary,

The last reports that I read is that GM, Mercedes, BMW, and VW were all planning on SCR for their diesel's this fall. It has been in Europe for a while without to many glitches.

 

[topcat]

Rumor I have heard will that the UREA canistar will be change out with your oil change. DPF filter system was a bridge-gap till the vendor for the UREA system could meet strict EPA guidelines set for 2010 and beyond.

 

[Shelby Griggs]

DPF isn't going away, that is still there, the SCR will replace the NOx absorber, this only replaces ONE component in the exhaust after-treatment.



SHG

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

topcat - that rumor is wrong. On the chassis cab trucks there is a tank that has a fill cap right behind the cab. I'd estimate the tank to hold 3 or 4 gallons of fluid and it burns at a rate of 1-2% of fuel usage. So assuming a burn rate of 2% and the smaller size of 3 gallons that's one fill up on the urea tank for 150 gallons of fuel.

 

[topcat]

Steve/Shelby, I am thinking that the diesel fuel injection process would be replaced with the injection process of UREA from a tank located near the exhaust stream down from the DP filter. I have seem early UREA filtration stage pic's from Cummins as far back as 2005 of a protype,were as it replaced the diesel fuel injection process,thereby increasing fuel mileage by 2% percent or more. I also meant that that part the light-off of the injection of diesel up-stream would go away and UREA would replace that part of the emissions process. Has anyone from TDR or REDDODGE.com been able to take pic's of this UREA system under the frame rails. I also was under the standing that EMCON will build the parts for Cummins patient for this UREA system. Thanks guys. .

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

There are pics of the system in the photo gallery in my article: Turbo Diesel Register: The Number One Resource For Dodge Cummins Turbo Diesel Owners!" - the 3rd and 4th rows of pictures are all of this system. I don't see how it would replace any of the diesel fuel injection to light off the DPF since it's entirely after the DPF. I was told that everything from the DPF up is the same as the '09 - I put that in my article as well.

 

[topcat]

Got it, is this system going on 2500/3500 or is this UREA system only for chassic cabs 4500/5500. I also notice the two sensors located in the front or is that the rear of the DP filter. Also will the UREA be a high pressured spray that will be introduced into the exhaust stream after light-off has occured? Out of content observation question,1)the bumper looks quite massive on the RegCab pic's. 2) What is the show schedule for the 2010 HD,and if so can you up load it to TDR so we can print the schedule.

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

It's all in the article - urea system is only on the chassis cab trucks, not the 2500/3500. The sensors are at the back of the SCR. There are no pictures of the DPF filter. The DPF filter is upstream (under the cab) of the entire SCR system (which is behind the cab). I don't think it's tied into when the DPF is regenerating but I wasn't able to get details about exactly when it's introduced, etc. I don't have a show schedule for appearances of the trucks, sorry.

 

[topcat]

Thanks Steve. You might get the schedule from someone from RedDodge.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Really a GREAT comprehensive presentation Steve - thanks!



Glad to hear about the lack of urea in the trucks most commonly used by TDR members - and man, with the rear seats folded down, looks to be room for a pair of sleeping bags in that area!



I'm liking the looks and overall construction/design of those better than the previous models - could get real interested in them - but dang, I've barely got the '02 where I want it! :{:-laf

 

[Russknh]

So what's the general opinion here, if I was on the fence about buying a CC would I have a better performing setup if I picked up a left over or would the new package be a plus in performance and mileage?

 

[FFeiller]

i'm not a diesel mechanic, so i'm not catching something here. if the DPF is staying and the diesel injection staying, how does the urea system improve performance and economy? also, what does that do to eliminate the problems with sooting and turbo work to the tune of 12,000 in parts, if it is after the the parts that are causing all of the grief and expense?

 

[FFeiller]

also, dodges big boast was that the 2008, 6. 7 made the 2010 emmission standards and now with the new system they are saying they meet the 2010 standards, must have missed something there too.

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

Chassis Cab vehicles having different testing procedures than 2500/3500's. That's why there are different emissions systems in place. The 2500/3500's have and do meet the 2010 emissions standard. The Chassis Cabs didn't. If you look back at our Chassis Cab intro articles you'll see that we discussed this then.

I wasn't able to get into it but I too doubt that that the urea system is going to change anything as far as mileage and performance goes. It's simply an after treatment to reduce tailpipe emissions. I do have a question into them on it and I'll let you know what I find out.

 

[SNiebaum]

the 6. 7L in the REGULAR TRUCKS remains unchanged as it is already 2010 emissions compliant... they aren't adding SCR to the engines in the REGULAR TRUCKS.



the 6. 7L in the C&C's will have the SCR added to meet the 2010. 5 emissions requirements for that segment of trucks...

 

[Shelby Griggs]

i'm not a diesel mechanic, so i'm not catching something here. if the DPF is staying and the diesel injection staying, how does the urea system improve performance and economy? also, what does that do to eliminate the problems with sooting and turbo work to the tune of 12,000 in parts, if it is after the the parts that are causing all of the grief and expense?

I know no more than I have read on the various ways to reduce emissions, BUT I believe the general consensus is that SCR will improve efficiency in general over the oxidation catalyst method of reducing NOx. I believe I read someplace that on highway class 8 trucks with SCR were obtaining up to 5% better mileage than other methods of reducing Nox.



The exotic materials needed to build the oxidation catalyst might figure prominently in the cost also.



I can't explain it, just summarizing what I have read more than one place.



A TDR article answering the many questions about how the existing emissions system(s) work along with the upcoming SCR on the C&C would be extremely helpful in my opinion. I suspect as we learn to live with all the new “stuff” we will need to learn more about the care of feeding of those systems.



One thing that worries me is long term. What happens in 5 years if there is something better than SCR? Will DEF be readily available forever or does it matter out of warranty, in other words by not filling the tank, what happens? EPA has been worried about that exact same scenario, and there was talk of reduced power and eventual shutdown by computer if the DEF tank is allowed to go to empty as a way of forcing compliance with the tailpipe emissions. I am speaking of SCR in general here, I have no idea what kind of sensors and programming will be on the 2010 C&C trucks.



SHG

 

[Regcabguy]

i'm not a diesel mechanic, so i'm not catching something here. if the DPF is staying and the diesel injection staying, how does the urea system improve performance and economy? also, what does that do to eliminate the problems with sooting and turbo work to the tune of 12,000 in parts, if it is after the the parts that are causing all of the grief and expense?

I'm thinking the urea injection will enable Dodge to "retune" the engine and other components for better performance and economy while relying on the downstream urea injection to cleanup afterward.