2012 Maxforce engine

[S.Morris]

This is a question for Mike (Mwilson)



Int dealer that my son does ERS work for has seen a few failures now of 2012 MaxForce engines (class 8)



I have some pics but can't figure out how to get from my Iphone to TDR... ... .



Apparentlly the idler for fuel pump has a brass bushing that wears out, cocks gear and blows a hole infront engine case and block . Not a pretty picture, and causing big down time for new truck owners.



Have you seen any failures up in your neck of the woods?



Steve

 

[mwilson]

This is a question for Mike (Mwilson)



Int dealer that my son does ERS work for has seen a few failures now of 2012 MaxForce engines (class 8)



I have some pics but can't figure out how to get from my Iphone to TDR... ... .



Apparentlly the idler for fuel pump has a brass bushing that wears out, cocks gear and blows a hole infront engine case and block . Not a pretty picture, and causing big down time for new truck owners.



Have you seen any failures up in your neck of the woods?



Steve

No, but I have seen a similar failure on (2) 2012 ISX Cummins engines. Did not blow the gear out the front, instead the pump gear dropped down and ran against the lower lip on the front gear case which filled the lube system full of shavings.

It was a bad batch of fuel pumps.



Cummins stepped up and took care of the issue by giving each customer a brand new engine. Can't ask for any more than that IMHO.



Mike.

 

[MChrist]

Which MaxForce motors? They make several sizes, ranging from 9 LITRE to 15 LITRE. Have you heard of one specific size, or any size? I have a MaxForce 10 in one of our trucks (2008 International)

 

[RustyJC]

Which MaxForce motors? They make several sizes, ranging from 9 LITRE to 15 LITRE.

Just as a matter of interest, the 15L is no longer in production. Using their "advanced EGR" technology, they could never get it within EPA emissions standards. They've switched over to the Cummins ISX with DEF for their 15L class engines.



Rusty

 

[Bill Stockard]

Just as a matter of interest, the 15L is no longer in production. Using their "advanced EGR" technology, they could never get it within EPA emissions standards. They've switched over to the Cummins ISX with DEF for their 15L class engines.



Rusty

Navistar with assistance from Cummins Emission Solutions will convert the rest of their engines to DEF during 2013 production year.



Bill

 

[S.Morris]

It was the 15L engine.

Yes the ISX will used as of Jan/13.



Seems IH not having much luck building in house engines. There was a management shakeup and the decision to go with Cummins while there is still some customers willing to look at a new IH. The dealers in my area have had a very tough time of it , because of poor marketing decisions on the part of Navistar.

 

[kcv67]

So am I not mistaken but did Caterpillar buy Navistar to try to get a engine to meet emissions and now they are going to throw Cummins in the Navistars. Sounds like quite the tangled web.



Casey

 

[rscurtis]

I had an issue with my 2002 4300 which relates to this story. Every so often, the starter would just zing the ring gear and not engage. It might happen once a week, or once a month. It began to happen more frequently, so I talked to a local rebuilder to see what he might know about this issue (on a 5000 mile engine). As it turns out, the problem was the starter, and the problem was so widespread that there was a national shortage of ring gears. He sold me a new clone of the next larger Delco starter, and once I cleaned up the four slightly damaged teeth on the ring gear, all was well. I subsequently found out that Navistar went to a Leece-Neville starter made in S. Africa that was strictly a throw-away, no parts were available for it.



Fortunately, I had one of the last DT466's with no emission controls, so I didn't have to deal with all that and the poor fuel economy.

 

[HBarlow]

So am I not mistaken but did Caterpillar buy Navistar to try to get a engine to meet emissions and now they are going to throw Cummins in the Navistars. Sounds like quite the tangled web.

Casey

I don't think so. What I remember reading was that Caterpillar gave up completely on their on-road engines because they could not meet the Economic Destruction Agency's stupid requirements.

 

[jgillott]

Navistar with assistance from Cummins Emission Solutions will convert the rest of their engines to DEF during 2013 production year.

Bill

Fortunately, I had one of the last DT466's with no emission controls, so I didn't have to deal with all that and the poor fuel economy.

We have a bunch of 2012 Dt466's at work. There's nothing like a 45 min regen in a DPF the size of a small barn to bring some fun to your daily commute. I can think of one advantage however..... if you happen to be on a slick road, it makes enough heat to melt the ice if you go slow enough. And, you don't have to worry about your feet being cold.

Seriously though, these new ones run very well and seem to be very solid trucks. I think the addition of the DEF will be a great step forward for Navistar.

 

[NIsaacs]

The way I understand it, Cat makes or made the CT11, 13, 15 and IHC makes or made the fuel system. That IHC had some EPA credits so they were not compliant but used them anyway. Then when that run out they payed a fine to continue in hopes of having some time to make something work that did pass EPA. The MaxForce engines in 11L, 13L and 15L look just like the Cat engines of that size, including twin turbos and aftercoolers.



Nick

 

[mwilson]

The way I understand it, Cat makes or made the CT11, 13, 15 and IHC makes or made the fuel system. That IHC had some EPA credits so they were not compliant but used them anyway. Then when that run out they payed a fine to continue in hopes of having some time to make something work that did pass EPA. The MaxForce engines in 11L, 13L and 15L look just like the Cat engines of that size, including twin turbos and aftercoolers.

Nick

I am pretty sure that is just what was done. Took a non compliant engine that CAT could not deal with anymore and stuck it in Navistar and CAT trucks for a couple more years.
Sheer genius... ...

Plus it orphaned the power plant for the CAT trucks in a two year production run. I would be one upset boy if I had purchased one of those... ... .
Mike.

 

[Bill Stockard]

The way I understand it, Cat makes or made the CT11, 13, 15 and IHC makes or made the fuel system. That IHC had some EPA credits so they were not compliant but used them anyway. Then when that run out they payed a fine to continue in hopes of having some time to make something work that did pass EPA. The MaxForce engines in 11L, 13L and 15L look just like the Cat engines of that size, including twin turbos and aftercoolers.



Nick

Yep, I think that's true with the CAT-Navistar joint venture to build CAT on-highway dump trucks. IIRC, about 15 years ago, Navistar either bought into or signed an agreement with a European heavy truck manufacturer (I don't remember which one) for designing new large bore diesel engines for Navistar/International heavy duty trucks. This European truck manufacturer had experience in powdered iron block and heads and other lighter weight diesel engine components. Later, Navistar purchased a diesel engine manufacturer in Brazil that was formerly associated with diesel engine manufacturer Deutz where powdered iron blocks and heads were cast and is using that factory for some of their engine blocks and heads. Navistar may also be furnishing Ford their blocks for Ford's 6. 7L pickup engine since the blocks and heads for that engine are sourced in Brazil. It could be that the MaxxForce 11L, 13L, and 15L engines were derived from those European designs.



Bill

 

[Bill Stockard]

I am pretty sure that is just what was done. Took a non compliant engine that CAT could not deal with anymore and stuck it in Navistar and CAT trucks for a couple more years.

Sheer genius... ...



Plus it orphaned the power plant for the CAT trucks in a two year production run. I would be one upset boy if I had purchased one of those... ... .

Mike.

Most likely, CAT on-highway dump trucks will be purchased by the giant construction companies like H B Zachery, Granite, etc. and be used on a couple of big projects for two or three years or until they are depreciated down and then they'll send them to an auction, be sold, and shipped overseas.



Bill

 

[Wayne M.]

I have some pics but can't figure out how to get from my Iphone to TDR... ... .

Steve

Steve, It's pretty easy. I've been doing it after experimenting a bit. Just click on "insert image", the little square picture next to the filmstrip. Then you'll see the regular field as if you were on a PC, and just follow. The phone will open up the camera roll, and it's normal business from there. It's real tiny though.



I've been reading along, and I'm amazed at what "globalization" and the Government has done to the diesel engine business. Not long ago, all manufacturers had competitive powerplants. I think the Ford/ International/ Caterpillar relationship is mighty strange. NIssacs, Not sure about that engine family, but the little cat 3116, the DT466E, and the HEUI 7. 3 powerstrokes used similar fuel systems. In fact, years ago I was shocked to see a Ford EEC IV computer "box" and MAP sensor on a 466E I once worked on... Mike, I agree with you about Nav stepping in to throw money at the CAT engines.

Another strange thing. Nav has found a place for the 6. 4 powerstroke, on the water... http://vsearch.cat.com/vivisimo/cgi-bin/query-meta?v%3afile=viv_RXt7g4&v%3astate=root%7croot-50-10%7c0&url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.cat.com%2fcda%2ffiles%2f2641183%2f7%2fM11PR2%20Final%20Prior%20to%20LB.doc&rid=Ndoc55&v%3aframe=redirect&v%3aredirect-hash=0d66f6ce33aaa4adba0d5e6a94a1f229& I'm shocked that CAT will stand behind this engine in a marine app.



The ISX's are rolling... . http://www.dieselprogress.com/Industry-News/4134/Navistar-Ahead-Of-Schedule/

 

[mwilson]

The ISX's are rolling... . http://www.dieselprogress.com/Industry-News/4134/Navistar-Ahead-Of-Schedule/

That is a 180 degree turnaround from 2010 when Navistar was comparing DEF and SCR to the AntiChrist... ... ... .....



How things change. .



Mike.

 

[HBarlow]

Wow, 505hp @ 3400 rpm. I wonder how many hours one of those boat anchors would last before blowing the turbo and the head gaskets at that power level and rpm?

I guess wealthy boat owners would not be likely to be familiar with the infamous Ferd Sick. Ohh and Sick. Four disasters for highway use so they may be gullible enough to buy that pos.

Personally, I would not want to be a passenger on a boat using that pos engine unless the skipper kept in inside the harbor where the Coast Guard could quickly rescue us.

 

[MChrist]

The link for the marine 6. 4 didn't work for me. I imagine there are no emission requirements for the marine diesels?

 

[Wayne M.]

The link for the marine 6. 4 didn't work for me. I imagine there are no emission requirements for the marine diesels?

It's a link to a word file. Might need a PC to see.

 

[AABEN]

Most big marine Eng RPM is set lower than road Eng. A lot is done with the prop. The out board 2 Cycle does turn out high RPM.