2012 Maxforce engine

[Bill Stockard]

That is a 180 degree turnaround from 2010 when Navistar was comparing DEF and SCR to the AntiChrist... ... ... .....

How things change. .

Mike.

Yep, I've seen it happen before... isn't Ram/Cummins doing the same thing?

Mike, If you read the book, "Red Black and Global" about Cummins you will discover that Cummins and Navistar were working together on advanced EGR for medium and heavy truck engines when Cummins suddenly dropped out and went with SCR using copper ferrosate instead of iron ferrosate as the other manufacturers were using as a catalyst leaving Navistar "holding the bag".

Bill

 

[mwilson]

Yep, I've seen it happen before... isn't Ram/Cummins doing the same thing?



Mike, If you read the book, "Red Black and Global" about Cummins you will discover that Cummins and Navistar were working together on advanced EGR for medium and heavy truck engines when Cummins suddenly dropped out and went with SCR using copper ferrosate instead of iron ferrosate as the other manufacturers were using as a catalyst leaving Navistar "holding the bag".



Bill

I seriously do need to read that book, it sounds really good based on the exerpts that you have provided.



We had our moments of angst here when the new technology hit us in 2010. We were really worried about the DEF freezing and handling of it in general. Now looking back there was nothing to worry about. But the decision was made for us so we had no choice.



But if one had to decide back in 2008 for example between ramping up for 2010 with either DEF/SCR or the somewhat workable EGR alternative it would not have been an easy decision.



And besides... "Hindsight is always 20/20"... .....



Mike.

 

[rscurtis]

I guess you could say Cummins is "doing the same thing", but they are for a different reason. Cummins was first at the gate to meet 2010 NOX standards, and did it before the Punishment Agency approved the use of an additional fluid, as it required participation by the operator. Navistar stuck with their advanced EGR (and emission credits) and tried to sell it as the better technology, but the market quickly knew better than Dan Ustian.

 

[Wayne M.]

I think Navistar will see quite a turnaround now. I deal with 3 different emission systems at my job. By FAR, the Cummins system we have in our 6. 7 mechanical sweepers is the best. Like it's not even there.

 

[Bill Stockard]

I guess you could say Cummins is "doing the same thing", but they are for a different reason. Cummins was first at the gate to meet 2010 NOX standards, and did it before the Punishment Agency approved the use of an additional fluid, as it required participation by the operator. Navistar stuck with their advanced EGR (and emission credits) and tried to sell it as the better technology, but the market quickly knew better than Dan Ustian.

Yep, that's true about Cummins and the on highway B-series 6. 7L, but why didn't they pursue it on other engines? They were working on them at the same time. In the book, "Red Black and Global", there isn't a reason given why they suddelnly dropped advanced EGR. My guess is they "saw the handwriting on the wall" that the Punishment Agency was not going to apporve advanced EGR and the supply of DEF wasn't going to be a problem. Navistar, meanwhile, was stuck with advanced EGR and rather than scrapping the system and writing off the expense, "eating crow" and buying a Cummins Emission Systems product, plugned ahead thinking they could make it work without writing off millions. We see how that turned out. Now they are writing off more millions, paying huge warranty costs, and having their customers leaving for competetiors. (In my 30+ years working for I-H and then a dealer, I've seen them shoot themselves in the foot several times) Navistar is still pointing out how much more exeperience they have with advanced EGR... for what that's worth. I don't think it's worth much right now.



Bill

 

[rscurtis]

I remember one of the early occasions in the 1970's when they first introduced the DV550 and the local town bought a fleet of garbage trucks so equipped. They all returned to the dealer within several weeks IIRC with broken crankshafts.

 

[Bill Stockard]

I remember one of the early occasions in the 1970's when they first introduced the DV550 and the local town bought a fleet of garbage trucks so equipped. They all returned to the dealer within several weeks IIRC with broken crankshafts.

I received a lot of criticism when I refused to sell those engines... who was right? IIRC, they had better luck in a farm tractor.

Bill

 

[S.Morris]

Heres a pic if it works. .

 

[S.Morris]

Wayne was coaching me on how to send a pic (thanks ) from Iphone and when I went looking for engine pic, I must have deleted it (doh) but found a pic that has a hole in everything!!



I know not related to post , at least I can send pic now. LOL

 

[HBarlow]

Damn! The photo of the sandwiched GM dually is horrible. The now deceased driver must have driven into a stopped truck without ever slowing.

 

[Wayne M.]

Wayne was coaching me on how to send a pic (thanks ) from Iphone and when I went looking for engine pic, I must have deleted it (doh) but found a pic that has a hole in everything!!

I know not related to post , at least I can send pic now. LOL

Hey, no problem, glad you figured it out.

 

[Wayne M.]

I received a lot of criticism when I refused to sell those engines... who was right? IIRC, they had better luck in a farm tractor.

Bill

Bill, this is for you;

In the 1970's the DSNY ran IH trucks , don't know model but can find out, but they were still bent on gasoline. They had GMC V6 or IH 501 power. The first diesel was CAT 3208 in a 1979 GMC.

There's a IH with a GMC behind it. The GMC is the first diesel.

 

[Bill Stockard]

Wayne,

Without seeing much of the front. I'm guessing 2010 or 2110 series since you say they were powered with 501s. The 2000 series use big bore gasoline engines while the 1900 series used medium gasoline engines V-345 and V-392. What cubic yard rear loaders are on those trucks?

Bill

 

[jgillott]

The first diesel was CAT 3208 in a 1979 GMC.

Now you are bringing back memories for me. The first truck that I drove regularly was a Ford 8000 cabover with a CAT 3208 and a strait 5-speed. You never had to worry about a speeding ticket in that thing. Just hold it to the floor and it would top out right at 55mph. :-laf

 

[Wayne M.]

Bill, that's a 1970 2010A with a 20 yd city tank body. The GMC has a 20 Heil- still buying them today.

 

[Wayne M.]

Now you are bringing back memories for me. The first truck that I drove regularly was a Ford 8000 cabover with a CAT 3208 and a strait 5-speed. You never had to worry about a speeding ticket in that thing. Just hold it to the floor and it would top out right at 55mph. :-laf

Those are the ones you always saw the bad guys driving on TJ Hooker and the A team. Getting blown up etc.

 

[jgillott]

Those are the ones you always saw the bad guys driving on TJ Hooker and the A team. Getting blown up etc.

That's because they were moving so slow they were easy to hit... . LOL

That truck was a 1984 with a vinyl spring bench seat, spring suspension, no AC obviously, and no radio. The only options were air brakes and power steering. After 8 hours in that thing, you felt like you did a days work. I sort of get a little smile when I hear some of the younger drivers at work complain about the 2011's and 2012's that they have now.

 

[Wayne M.]

That's because they were moving so slow they were easy to hit... . LOL

That truck was a 1984 with a vinyl spring bench seat, spring suspension, no AC obviously, and no radio. The only options were air brakes and power steering. After 8 hours in that thing, you felt like you did a days work. I sort of get a little smile when I hear some of the younger drivers at work complain about the 2011's and 2012's that they have now.

You were probably a lucky duck to get power steering.

 

[Bill Stockard]

Bill, that's a 1970 2010A with a 20 yd city tank body. The GMC has a 20 Heil- still buying them today.

Wayne,

I'm surprised NYC is still buying rear loaders except maybe for commercial work. I'd thought you guys would be using automated side loaders with dual control low entry cabs along with trash carts minimizing labor costs with only one man/woman per truck and personnel lifting injuries.

Bill

 

[Wayne M.]

Wayne,

I'm surprised NYC is still buying rear loaders except maybe for commercial work. I'd thought you guys would be using automated side loaders with dual control low entry cabs along with trash carts minimizing labor costs with only one man/woman per truck and personnel lifting injuries.

Bill

Don't want to get too far off topic, but Bill, I was just showing you an old IH model we had back in the day. I said we are using the current version of that Heil body but in 25 cu yd, but the chassis is a Mack terra pro LE dual steer. We've been using low entry dual steer cabs since Maxon was in business in 1980. We've experimented with various ASL's even a triple jointed one that can reach around a parked car. In NYC, with the density and parking logistics etc. ASL's don't work for us. So it's a 2 man deal, and our sill height is a scoch lower usual. Though I'm not involved in that end, I'm strictly under the truck so to speak. The boys do work hard. Some parts of the city pack 15+ tons per route daily. I don't think an ASL is capable of that.