205 pump on Non I/C question answer

[mysteryman]

I have gotten several emails asking if the 205 will work on the non I/C 89/90

engines... .



Yes it will fit BUT... ... One will need to change the sensor for the KSB valve and the 6 fuel line fittings on the pump head will need to be swapped out

from your old pump as well. I might be able to order some with the early style ksb and fuel fittings already installed. I will have to see... But no big deal either way



The KSB on the 205 gets power with the engine cold then off after warmed up. The early pump is opposite... A sensor change should be all it will take .



For the record..... the 205 pump is the pump of choice by most for our trucks.

I prefer it myself over the earlier pumps

 

[bgilbert]

First off, for power and performance, an earlier pump will walk the dog all over that 205 pump and other later intercooled pumps. Second, the delivery valve holders on the back of the pump do not need to be changed. One can mix and match lines from intercooled or non with injection pumps intercooled or non. The only thing is the early pumps have longer delivery valve holders (fuel line fittings). You just 'move back', adjust/connect accordingly whatever lines you have with whatever injection pump you have. For instance, I've had an IC'd pump with nonIC'd lines. I now have a nonIC'd pump with IC'd lines.



KSB- for those nonIC'd 89-90 owners that don't care about the ksb, just simply leave it unplugged when installing a 205 or other intercooled pump. You won't have the ksb or advance feature (mostly an emissions device), but will have normal timing. Unplug the ksb on a nonIC'd pump/truck you get full advance all the time.

 

[dpuckett]

Actually, I thought the VEs were all similar from year to year. Of course, a hot rodded 114 pump will outdo a near stock 205. I think both can be set up close to the same. Keep in mind that the injector lines are bigger on the earlier engines which helps. Best fuel mileage was from a late 1991- 21cm housing and all. Had issues (Lots of smoke and 19psi) and got 24mpg.



Daniel

 

[mysteryman]

If you do not use the correct delivery valve holders ( fittings for the fuel lines) you will have to bend up the fuel lines to get them to fit... Bending the fuel lines is a real bad idea ! It also looks sloppy ... The early non I/C engines were faster than the later I/C ed engines. But it was not because of the pump. It was because of several things. The compression was higher. The injectors were larger. The turbo housing on the air side was smaller giving the air charge more velocity. . The pump timing was more advanced... ect

The 205 pump had internal updates that the earlier pumps did not have and the KSB worked a whole lot better as well... And yes the 205 did move more fuel. .

First off, for power and performance, an earlier pump will walk the dog all over that 205 pump and other later intercooled pumps. Second, the delivery valve holders on the back of the pump do not need to be changed. One can mix and match lines from intercooled or non with injection pumps intercooled or non. The only thing is the early pumps have longer delivery valve holders (fuel line fittings). You just 'move back', adjust/connect accordingly whatever lines you have with whatever injection pump you have. For instance, I've had an IC'd pump with nonIC'd lines. I now have a nonIC'd pump with IC'd lines.



KSB- for those nonIC'd 89-90 owners that don't care about the ksb, just simply leave it unplugged when installing a 205 or other intercooled pump. You won't have the ksb or advance feature (mostly an emissions device), but will have normal timing. Unplug the ksb on a nonIC'd pump/truck you get full advance all the time.

 

[Stomp]

First off, for power and performance, an earlier pump will walk the dog all over that 205 pump and other later intercooled pumps. QUOTE]



Now Bill why such a bold statement???? How much testing have you done to prove this???? How many hours have you spent with a pump on the test stand to actually see or say that the earlier pump will walk the dog over a 205 pump???? How much dyno time have you spent to back up what you said????



The only real test would be to get both pumps and put them on the test stand. You would have to use the same head/rotor in both pump and then see if there is a difference. There might be, but I don’t think that it would be a huge difference or walk the dog difference like some would say.



By the way nice sig "89 W250 443hp 922ft-lb 14mm VE still alive " I wonder who you are sticking your toung out at????



Stomp

 

[dpuckett]

By the way nice sig "89 W250 443hp 922ft-lb 14mm VE still alive " I wonder who you are sticking your toung out at????



Stomp

Oh geez, here we go. Down that long slippery path I was almost certain we more mature 1st genners could rise above ,in comparison to the other generational forums. Stop it here, guys.



Stomp, I do have to agree with you 100%- there is almost no way to tell if one pump will outdo another without putting each one on the same stand. then you ahve to put them on the same engine, run them on the same dyno under the same atmospheric conditions, and go from there. Not likely to be feasable. 13 & 14mm heads negate any comparison to (stock) 12mm heads, no matter what numbers are on the side of the pump. Yes, I agree Bill's pump will outflow more than 95% of the other VE pumps here, but he has also had his pump gutted and refilled with bigger parts and stiffer springs.



I dont believe that was mysteryman's point, to see what pump could outflow which. I believe he referred to internal upgrades, like maybe the advance piston or vane pump? I'm not sure and am not going to pretend to know. But everything has to work in harmony just right to get it to run just right and get 23mpg. Simply increasing your fuelling or static timing isnt going to get it all.



-DP

 

[pepecat]

give me a brand new smooth runnning stock fueling pump properly adjusted and I will pay $$$, it is worth it, I don't care if it is a 205 or whatever, but I know that it has to be the best option for us who want to pass the truck onto the next generation so to speak.

My pump makes strange noises on a hot restart after sitting for a while in this summer heat. it is giving up the ghost. I just hope it will last until we get our new pumps.

 

[bgilbert]

I hear p-pumps are the way to go. .

 

[pepecat]

do they make new p pumps for our application?

 

[JLEONARD]

I hear p-pumps are the way to go. .

Yes but we'll have to get Scott trained first.



Jay

 

[Greenleaf]

MY pump is bigger 'n Your pump



From what I have noticed with my workings on the P-Pumps here at the school, it's pretty darn simple to adjust and to swap out the fuel/cam plate. The AFC is also easily MIA



I have yet to install a gov spring set in a P pump.



I may be on crack but, I'm happy that the VE system is not a VP system. I don't care how mutch HP our first gens will/will not make.



KTA probably told Bill something or other about what pumps are best (?)



Nice numbers Bill. You worked hard for that. Good on yah!

 

[bgilbert]

Thanks GL. You guessed right.

 

[Stomp]

Look all I wanted to know is how Bill can come to the conclusion that he came too? Where are the facts? I was talking to another individual today and we came to the same conclusion that you did GL. KTA must have said something to Bill and he took it as gospel. Bill and I go back and forth from time to time. No harm no foul.



Actually KTA and I have talked about this several different times. It was kind of a toss in the air which one was better. He does like the earlier pumps better. I respect him and we talk every now and again and he has sent me another 14mm head/rotor so I can build another pump. This time I am not going to set it for kill. Set it for 220cc of fuel and then take it to the dyno and see where it is. I want around 450-500hp on diesel. Maybe even less it doesn’t really matter to me anymore.



If I wanted to build a non-intercooled pump I could have. I chose not too. I actually have 3 of them. I only have one 205 pump. Except my 205 pump has the early DV valves with the lines that go with them. I run a jumper wire to the ksb from the solenoid so it doesn’t activate. I don’t need the extra timing during warm up it doesn’t get that cold around here.



I am sorry that I got off topic. Right now I have an early pump on and it is worn out. Believe me it couldn’t “walk the dog” anywhere. I dynoed it this past weekend and it only made 278hp on diesel only and 340 with water/meth. That is with some custom honed out 185’s. It’s a very tired pump that’s all there is too it. When I had my 205 pump set up with a good head/rotor I dynoed 444hp 923ft-lb. I will be putting that head/rotor into an early pump to keep as a spare I will probable flow it and see where it is at. We managed to squeeze 200cc out of it when it was in my 205 pump. Maybe it will be more maybe it won’t. There are too many variables between now and the last time it was on the test stand. It will have a new cam and roller bearings it maybe a couple other odds and ends. I will post some results when I get them.



mysteryman- (Sorry for the hi-jack) Keep up the good work and let us know how the test pump looks. I may be interested in one. I have had to buy alot of Bosch parts over the last couple of years. It deffinatly puts a dent in the ol' wallet. What are the differeces? If you happen to know off hand?



Stomp

 

[Greenleaf]

This time I am not going to set it for kill. Set it for 220cc of fuel and then take it to the dyno and see where it is. I want around 450-500hp on diesel. Maybe even less it doesn’t really matter to me anymore.

Stomp

This is exactly why I got out of tractor pulling. Besides, I think this is what Mysteryman had in mind. If you want the big numbers you simply will not have longevity. Not to mention the continuous updates and broken pieces/parts the incresed HP will destroy.



It's fun for a time (BOMBing trucks/tractors) but the time and investment takes it's toll after a time.



Food-4-Thought. Wouldn't a 14mm head/plunger make the same flow in a late model pump as it would in the early model pump? What is the defining factor between the two outside the KSB? OK, I know there are some very minor differences but would the style of the fuel pin (not the cone) mandate a higher fuel rate... ... .



I too ran a jumper from the solenoid to my wax motor.

 

[bgilbert]

Well 205 is greater than 114. I wonder if folks think that means 205hp.

By the way nice sig "89 W250 443hp 922ft-lb 14mm VE still alive " I wonder who you are sticking your toung out at????

The tongue wasn't pointed at anyone. It was relief that my pump didn't die on the dyno. I was worried about it the whole time. I think the only reason it survived was because I didn't touch the pump, didn't max the timing, turn up the fuel, or adjust anything. I think it's got 500hp in it once I take care of a few other things. It's nice though to join the elite 400rwhp club . I'll give my thanks speech when I break 500hp .