Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) 2nd Gen Trany Upgrade Not Replacement....

[DieselMinded]

Well I have been wanting to do this for sometime



Now its happening In early MAY



Single Disk Suncoast Torque Converter And Suncoast Shift Kit/ Valve Body



Between $1600-$1750 Installed & Out The Door



I just spent about 30 mins talking to my Trany Guy here are some key notes I had cleared up.



1-48RE trany is geared like so... LOW-2nd-3rd-4th-TC Lock Its not a 5 speed. but if you start from a stop and count them you will swear it shifts 5 times !!!!!!



2. 1-With the above mentioned Upgrades With stock power you will have a STALL ! mimimum upgrades are needed for it to seem like normal trany operation is happening ... the EDGE Box added plunty to make the TC work... .



2. 2-Will the BOMBED TC & trany be alright with no engine upgrades???>---YES it will just seem to have a stall... NORMAL ...



2. 3- WHY ???--- Because the Suncoast has a larger thicker clutch assembly and it takes more POWER to get it GOING !! Once its going ... well,,, well can you say ... . GONE !!!



3- THE 2nd Generation COLD tempature trany Issues with it not wanting to shift right ... EX------ take off in low (1st) then it shifts into 2nd then holds out for what seems like for ever then shifts to 3rd,4th, and TC lock up real Quick ... IS NOT NORMAL AND NEW TRANY FLUID WILL NOT FIX IT !!! its the seals in the front of the trany cluches (or something like that)... . I told him mine did that and he said he would replace them no biggie ... they do a pressure test on the trany when they Drop they Valve Body anyway



Now this was alot of information that I just had to absorb so if the details/termenogy are not perfect thats why



I CANT WAIT



all I can do now is PRAY that I havent meesed up my stock trany with the puny THIN stock TC



Im not going toi pull a sled nor any heavy towing so this upgrade is more than enough for me personally



I full built DDT or ATS is cool and all but kind of over kill for me... and too much $$$$



I know of people who have pulled a sled ALOT with this set up and its very strong!!



The TC upgrage should prolong the life of my trany by A BUNCH !! As well as ATLEAST 10 % more POWER TO THE GROUND its probly a lot more than that but Im not sure



DM

 

[bmoeller]

1-48RE trany is geared like so...



Uhhhh, your '02 has a 47RE not a 48RE.



LOW-2nd-3rd-4th-TC Lock Its not a 5 speed. but if you start from a stop and count them you will swear it shifts 5 times !!!!!!



Should be 1-2-3-3Lock up-4-4 Lock up. I could feel my stocker lock-up at light throttle. I can feel ALL shifts and lock-up in 3rd and 4th with the new one.



2. 2-Will the BOMBED TC & trany be alright with no engine upgrades???>---YES it will just seem to have a stall... NORMAL ...



Would depend a lot on the stall speed of the convertor.



2. 3- WHY ???--- Because the Suncoast has a larger thicker clutch assembly and it takes more POWER to get it GOING !! Once its going ... well,,, well can you say ... . GONE !!!



The lock-up clutch has nothing to do with the power required to get it going, until it locks up. The stator would. The larger clutch area only means it will take more power to make it slip.



3- THE 2nd Generation COLD tempature trany Issues with it not wanting to shift right ... EX------ take off in low (1st) then it shifts into 2nd then holds out for what seems like for ever then shifts to 3rd,4th, and TC lock up real Quick ... IS NOT NORMAL AND NEW TRANY FLUID WILL NOT FIX IT !!! its the seals in the front of the trany cluches (or something like that)... . I told him mine did that and he said he would replace them no biggie ... they do a pressure test on the trany when they Drop they Valve Body anyway



Could be a valve body (springs) issue, too.



The TC upgrage should prolong the life of my trany by A BUNCH !! As well as ATLEAST 10 % more POWER TO THE GROUND its probly a lot more than that but Im not sure



Higher line pressure from a modified valve body would do more to help increase the longevity, than a new TC. Without higher line pressure, along with a stronger TC, you could trash a stock transmission faster since the transmission will slip easier (receiving more power from the better TC).

Hope this helps.

 

[Timbeaux38]

Is your transmission taking a dump?

 

[DieselMinded]

Yes 47 RE Sorry



Thanks for the Info



Tim,



My trany Is fine I just want to keep it that way .



DM

 

[y-knot]

You really don't seem to know much about how a automatic transmission works, much less how the 46,47 or 48 series we have in our trucks work. You have a transmission problem, and the only way you will ever fix it is to deal with the whole problem, not just a select few items. I don't like to admit it, and most other on this site don't either, but the fact is Dodge drooped the ball on these trucks transmissions, both manual and automatic. Our auto's have several areas that need attention, and fixing only one or two of them does nothing. Think of the chain scenario, it is only as good as it's weakest link, same theory applies. First off, I do not know the condition of your trany, but being your working on it implies it has seen better days. If you neglect to address the internal problems, caused Thur wear, adding a new TC and VB is useless. The stock auto in brand new condition has marginal at best. The torque converter is a problem, it has to high a stall and too little surface area (clutch) for a diesel. Replacing it with a better aftermarket TC is a step in the right direction, but not it the rest of the trany is worn and you do not intend to service it. The tighter TC will just speed up the process and lead to a quicker failure. The Valve body is also a source of concern in the stock transmission, but it alone will not fix an already worn and slipping transmission. A quality replacement transmission, form one of the top three manufacturers, is really the only logical and sound way to go. They address the many internal areas that need up-grading in order to survive. These areas include, but are not limited too the reverse clutch band, pump, clutch packs, springs, hubs, and overdrive unit. The higher stall TC was not put there by accident, it was placed there to serve as a buffer so the rest of the transmission would survive, at least till the warranty period was up. This served to prevent much of the load, and is credited for allowing Dodge to get away with installing an underrated trany in a HD truck. Like many others have found out the hard way when they installed the famous Mystery Switch on there stock trany and wondered why it melted down so soon. The Dodge trany is a very good automatic, it has been around since the sixties when everyone knew it as the 727. Now some 40+years later it's know as the 48RE, different yes but basically the same thing. Problem is, it was designed as a gas engine trany, which is very much different then a diesel engine trany. Way lower RPMs, and our torque peeks at around 1600-1700 RPMs, this coupled with the extreme loads we expect it to haul, makes for a week trany. One day Dodge will finally come out with a real HD truck transmission, till then everyone (yes even the 2005 guy's, you have the same thing everyone else has) has to struggle with what we have. I think we all share some in the blame, Dodge struck the Cummins in the ram, and everyone flacked to it. Who cared about the trany, they just wanted there Cummins. Anyhow, with all the design problems it really does very little good to replace a few items, without replacing them all. As for your local trany guy, sure he's going to tell you what ever you want to hear. Also, I truly think the local repair shop is not qualified to rebuild and up-grade your trany . Yes, they can go over it and throw in a re-build kit, new clutches, o-rings and such,but you really need more. ATS, DDT, and Banks are the top three diesel truck automatic transmission performance up-grade specialist. This is where you should be turning for advice.

What ever you do, consider installing a quality aftermarket transmission cooler when you get it back. This is the best return on the dollar anyone can get. Heat is the number one killer of transmission, if you can help keep that under control, you will prolong the life. Test show for every 20 degree drop in temperatures, you double the life. And these auto's do get overheated... . Why do you think the first three model years had such a bad time with the transmission cooling lines? They would melt when the trany was pushed to hard, and allow the fluid to escape the system. There are many bad scenario's, but one of the worst for our trucks is reverse with a load. This builds alot of heat very quickly, just ask anyone that had to back-up a very heavy trailer in soft soil, or up a incline. Good luck

 

[DieselMinded]

WOW thats a read...



Thanks for the reply and the knowlage... . to defend or what ever



Round 2



The trany shop Im going to DOES EEP's TRANY WORK... ... if you go to enterprize engine with trany issues they will most likely send you to severences!



Trany temp is not an issue to me I do no heavy towing all I do is drive around and haul once in a while



I agree that if I was going 700 HP plus maybe I should concider a FULL TRANY. .



AT THE MOST I WILL HAVE MILD INJECTORS AND THE COMP 5x5 thats it



its not a race truck and its not a pulling truck its just a truck,, truck



I have like 42,000 on my truck my trany is fine I HAVE NO TC shudder and the trany seems to be holding up very well.



If I owned a company and I used my truck 24-7 and relied on it for all my income I would get a full trany but thats not the case. .



I Have friends who have pulled a sled with just these mods ALOT so I know its strong .



I know of people who have had great luck and milage with just a VB upgrade .



IS this set up better than a DDT /ATS ... . NO ... is it resonable... ... YES Cheaper... . YES



I would like to be able to WOT 5x5 and have my trany shift right thats IT ... thats all Im after



maybe once a mth I would do this



the other advantage is LONGEVITY



If a trany shop was going to persuade you for an upgrade ,,,, if thats there TATICS they would try to sell me a full trany .



When I called they just did 2 trucks that week that was 500 plus HP NOW that was a tripple disk Ill admit... ... . Ive been told ALOT that a tripple disk may not provide trany longevity. And Im not going crazy here so a SINGLE DISK is Ideal IMO



Im triing to head things off ..... to keep my truck on the road



MAybe a Comp was not the best Idea for that ... . but it sure is FUN !! SO Im just aiding the rest of the truck to Hold it ... PERIOD



Is there NOT a happy medium between A Stock trany and A GROUND POUNDING MONSTER OUT OF MY WAY 100% FULLY BUILT BILLET & CHROME W/ Titanium Gears DDT/ATS ?????

DM

 

[y-knot]

If we were talking about any other brand, yes a middle ground would be easy to reach. But the problem is we are talking about Dodge. They are so far behind the rest of the industry that unfortunately there is no middle ground to get. The trany is terribly undersized for the application, and the design has way out grown it's original intended use. Dodge could do more, but cost is always a consideration. Both Ford and Chevy dealt with this issue years ago. Chevy decided to go outside the cooperation and buy a HD automatic. Ford is actually on there second newer automatic, this latest 5-speed version works great and is at present time the class leader. To give you a ideal of just how bad Dodge has been at keeping up, the present 48re shares the same basic design as the original 727 from the 60's. It is also the same basic trany as the one they use in the 1500 series and the mid-size Dakota, only our version has some beefier inside parts. Heat weather you know it or not, is always an issue with a automatic. Yes maybe your warning light (Idiot Light) don't go off, but then again it will never go off till it has already cooked it self. Remember the trany light, just like all other gages and warning lights, are actually run by the on-board computer. They are not independent, like a aftermarket gauge would be. At what PSI rating would you like to be informed that your engine oil pressure is to low? 30Ppsi?? 20psi?? I think most people would consider anything less then 25 or 20 psi a problem. And for sure a 15 psi reading, would be a real alarm, wouldn't you agree?? Dodge has a weired sense of humor, they think that all Dodge owners are worry warts, and would over crowd the service department if they actually installed a real, accurate reading pressure gauge or warning light. So what they did, was program the computer to read what most owners would consider acceptable readings. Who cares what the REAL readings are, just give us what we want to see, and screw the real stuff. So that is what you get, while you are driving down the road the computer is giving you a reading that most engineers think would please the owners eye. Ever notice how the readings are always right there in the 40-45 psi range?? And why does it take 5-10 seconds to get a oil pressure reading, doesn't that build right away?? Sure it does. EVERY Dodge truck and car has their warning lights and gauges controlled by the vehicles on-board computer. In out trucks the design parameter is 6 psi. That means as long as there is a reading of at least 6 psi of oil pressure, everything is alright, and the gauge will continue to read 40-45 psi. Even at start-up on a cold winter day when oil pressures go to 100psi the gauge will read only slightly higher then the normal 40-45. Fact is the only thing they use the oil pressure sending unit for, is to know weather the truck has more then 6 psi of oil pressure. The readings you see, are all generated by the temperature probe, and engine rpm. They have nothing to do with the accrual oil pressure. Dodge does this with most of the other readings as well, so by the time you ever see a warning light it is to late. All automatic transmission have a heat issue, they eat, sleep and breath friction, and friction makes heat. I was coming up the mountain pass from Cherokee to Gatlinburg, when I spotted a huge automatic transmission leak on the pavement. It started about three miles out of Cherokee and I followed it till about 3/4 of the way up the mountain. I knew I would eventually find the truck it belonged to, and sure enough I did. It was a Dodge and he was pulling what looked to be about a 34' Fifth wheel trailer. I stopped to help, but their was nothing anyone could do but call a wrecker. Apparently he had sprung a leak in one of the transmission cooler lines (actually the fluid was so hot, it melted the coupling and allowed the fluid to leak out. Wow, the fluid got so hot it melted the coupling, but the warning light didn't come on, imagine that) He said he never knew there was a problem till the truck started slowing down, and he smelled something very hot. In-fact, the warning light never did come on, all the fluid poured out, and the trany melted itself, but no light. Anyhow, the point is, Dodge put warning lights and gauges in, but they are for the most part useless. The only thing they are there to do is to make you the driver feel good. You look over at the gauge and it reads OK, so you feel good. Never mind the 106 degree heat wave and the 16,000LB trailer you are attempting to tow, with the AC on and George Straight in the CD.

I sincerely wish you luck with your new transmission package, and I hope it does everything you want it to do. The reason for this long post is to wake you and every other member up about what is going on inside these trucks. Every Automatic can benefit by the addition of an auxiliary cooler, the combo of huge torque ratings, low RPMs, heavy loads (not just towing, these tranys were built for 3500 lb cars, and we have them in 7000 Lb+ trucks, so they don't have to have a trailer behind them to be loaded down) and week Tc's make for a very poor package. The cooler you can get the fluid the better. Guy's that do not tow, will have there automatics last longer. You can also add more HP but leave in the stock TC and it will not hurt to much. But, replacing the TC with a tighter (lower stall) unit will cause the fluid temps to rise and will cause accelerated wear on transmission internals. The absolutely worst thing anyone can do is to use the MYSTERY SWITCH on a stock trany . The built-in buffer that helps the trany live, being the stock TC, is effectively removed and accelerated wear will happen, towing is really a NO NO. Those that tow, light meaning under 6,000Lb. , transmission wear is not an issue as long as common sense is available. But anything over 9,000Lbs will result in heavy transmission wear, especially if it involves hilly terrain. I have taken several 46's. 47's apart, they are good car transmissions, but lousy Heavy Duty truck transmissions. They seem to work pretty good in the Dakota, the combo of low torque and low load makes them last much longer.

What can you do?? Routine maintenance: frequent fluid changes (once a year or more if you tow regularly), band adjustments, and a good aftermarket cooler. Avoid high stress situations, the absolute worst scenario is backing a load in soft ground up-hill. The trany is roughly in second gear, and the extreme load is all handled by the reverse band. Also, help the transmission out then switching into OD and when the TC lock's-up. Reduce throttle while the shift is taking place, and then try to feather in the throttle after the shift.

 

[DieselMinded]

again very informative thanks.



Not sure how we got on gauges or idiot lights but i bet dodge is not the only corp. to do that sort of thing.



im not planning on backing any real heavy loads anytime soon



its kind of obvious that the 2nd gens have repeated trany and fueling issues hints the 40 billion pusher kits ,,but when it comes to the trany the only thing anyone talks about are the big trany companies ats,ect... ect...



there just isnt much talk about upgrading the factory set up



LIKE ADDING A CARTER to the fuel system instead of buying a $800 or what ever air dog



Inturn



Adding a TC/VB/Shift kit to the stock trany instead of going with a full replacement



The Carter Does the JOB what did you lose by not spending $800 ?



Same As the trany



Now A ATS-AIRDOG 2nd gen Is awesome but what some need to realize not every one on here pulls or races or even tows often so a TC/VB/SK -Carter 2nd Gen will be suffeient



Just My OPINION



you seem to like the trany coolers would you recommend One or some valuable reading.



Thanks

DM

 

[flattracker]

Ynot I don't know where you get your information but that is the biggest load of crap I ever heard. Fords new 5 speed is on recall because they are dropping like flies from busted reverse planetaries and cases. And the allison in the chevies will not even withstand stock horsepower thats why the computer is programmed to reduce fueling in first and overdrive. As for the oil pressure on dodges I don't know who fed you that line but the gauge does most certainly read pressure and does not post an imaginary figure taken from temprature and rpm. Get you a factory manual and read it before you come on here and pass out rumors you heard as facts.

 

[y-knot]

I stand by my claims, and for the record I have many manuals to refer too. I would not say the Ford 5-speed is dropping like flies, that would be an extreme exaggeration but something tells me that's your style. The Cummins does have a oil pressure sender, but it is only used by the computer to measure if the engine has greater then 6 psi of oil pressure. Sorry to bust your Cummins bubble, but I have most likely forgotten more then you will ever know about the Cummins. I also monitor the competition, Chevrolet and Dodge, and sure there have been some transmission failures, but nothing like you suggest. To put it back into context, there have been fewer transmission related problems from both manufacturers combined, then the number of 3rd generation drive line problems from Dodge.

 

[Got Smoke?]

DM have you checked out Dave Goerend? Not sure about prices, although you may find a better deal with him. However, he has 100K mile warrenty on his Valvebodies & a LIFETIME warrenty on his Torque Convertors.



Check out his site www.gbtransmissions.com Oo.

 

[flattracker]

Ynot exaggeration I think not. Fact # 1 The ford torqueshift is on recall because of busted reverse planetaries and too small of snap rings breaking cases replacement or rebuild is based on the volume of shavings in the pan on removal if you don't believe me check with a ford diesel tech. Fact #2 The third generation oil pressure gauge reads pressure not some arbitrary figure that the computer spit out. Do this little test bring your truck up to operating temp drain the oil refill with 10 wt oil start engine the oil pressure will read 20lbs or less on the gauge or do you think that sneaky little computer saw you pour that thinner oil in and cut the reading accordingly. As for how much info you have forgotten about these engines if the rest of it was as erroneous as what you have posted on here it was probably for the best. I have no idea about your background is but I have been working on and with these engines since they were originally introduced by case and cummins as a joint collaberation in the b and c series this was long before they ever appeared in a dodge pickup.

 

[SKargo]

I'd love to read some of ynots responses but good googamooga, ever hear of a paragraph? :--)

 

[flattracker]

Evidently when you were taking english four I was taking the transmission apart on my moms fairlane to see what made it work. Excuse my grammar and spelling or lack of, neither were ever my strong points.

 

[SKargo]

Evidently when you were taking english four I was taking the transmission apart on my moms fairlane to see what made it work. Excuse my grammar and spelling or lack of, neither were ever my strong points.

I was speaking about ynots lengthy unbroken responses. Not meant to insult anyone, my eyes have a hard time staying focused on one big blob of words.



Thanks for judging me though, it's appreciated.

 

[SnoKing]

Well if you complain to Dodge about oil pressure on a later 2nd gen, you get a reflash that turns the gauge into an idot light like Y-not says. My 2001. 5 is still a gauge, but other are not after a reflash. SNOKING

 

[flattracker]

Can't comment on the reflash affecting the gauge haven't come across it personally.

Have owned 2 12valve, one second generation 24 valve, one third gen 24 valve, and numerous midrange ford trucks with b and c engines. The gauges in all of them would read from as high as 85 lbs on cold start up to as low as 15lbs on hot idle verified by hooking up a manual gauge to verify pressures temporarily.

Numerous people have thought it a bright idea to hook into the top of the oil filter base with a mechanical gauge and blame the difference in readings on inaccuracies in the factory gauge. there is a reason that neither dodge, cummins, ford, or case uses this port for oil pressure readings it is too close to the oil pump. these engines have a gerotor oil pump that cause huge up and down pressure pulses on every revolution making it impossible to get an accurate reading this close to the pump. It is also why there is a list of approved oil filters these same pressure pulses are what shreds the media in lower quality filters.

 

[DieselMinded]

Ok We may be just a little bit off topic here guys.



This thread is about upgrading the auto trany insted of replacing it with a high dollar dtt, or ats.



A common over looked $$$ saver with simalar results or atleast adiquite.



AS for other brands of torque converters that is an option but SUNCOAST is very reputible and thats just about the only brand the Diesel Shops use for this application... not saying there the best its just TRIED AND TRUE..... that said I will still look a bit into other Reliable TC options just to see whats kickin' ... . the Upgrade is very near



Thanks

DM

 

[flattracker]

Sorry to take your thread off track. The very cost effective combo I am running in my 03 is TCS steel stator convertor 89h 525. 00 59. 16 for shipping, DTT update kit 360. 00 including shipping, dtt billett second gear servo about 165. 00 I think, scrounged from a previous project . DTT billett band strut from previous truck or available from TCS about 15. 00 . Billett DTT accumulator piston with spring removed and spacer installed 60. 00. Stock valve body with pressure turned up to 68 lbs at idle in drive and the top plate drilled for better convertor clutch apply, manual valve and regulator valve and switch valve replaced with dtt components also scrounged from previous project. Days labor to remove trans install update kit, set clearances and remove and reshim thrust clearances on overdrive section , they are always wrong. Total cost 1169. 16 for a trans with great stall speed , firm shifts just the way I like them and will hold my TST on 5x5 maybe higher don't go there not for fear of the trans but egt's and the turbo, If you are going higher than that you really need a bigger turbo and a billet input shaft but then cost effective goes right out the window. Total time involved 1 days labor maybe longer if it's your first one or you have less than ideal equipment to work with. Would of had the same amount of time involved taking it to the nearest DTT dealer having it done and getting it back to the tune of 4000. 00. No warranty you say I say 2800. 00 for a warranty no thanks.

 

[KKlingbeil]

Sorry to take your thread off track. The very cost effective combo I am running in my 03 is TCS steel stator convertor 89h 525. 00 59. 16 for shipping, DTT update kit 360. 00 including shipping, dtt billett second gear servo about 165. 00 I think, scrounged from a previous project . DTT billett band strut from previous truck or available from TCS about 15. 00 . Billett DTT accumulator piston with spring removed and spacer installed 60. 00. Stock valve body with pressure turned up to 68 lbs at idle in drive and the top plate drilled for better convertor clutch apply, manual valve and regulator valve and switch valve replaced with dtt components also scrounged from previous project. Days labor to remove trans install update kit, set clearances and remove and reshim thrust clearances on overdrive section , they are always wrong. Total cost 1169. 16 for a trans with great stall speed , firm shifts just the way I like them and will hold my TST on 5x5 maybe higher don't go there not for fear of the trans but egt's and the turbo, If you are going higher than that you really need a bigger turbo and a billet input shaft but then cost effective goes right out the window. Total time involved 1 days labor maybe longer if it's your first one or you have less than ideal equipment to work with. Would of had the same amount of time involved taking it to the nearest DTT dealer having it done and getting it back to the tune of 4000. 00. No warranty you say I say 2800. 00 for a warranty no thanks.

Flattracker, must you question anything anyone else says because you haven't heard of that before?? There are opposing views on things, and you just attack them instead of POSSIBLY learning something, but you must be mighty and all knowing about EVERYTHING!!