2nd generation intercooler

[J DeMaio]

Hey guys:



I was wanting the pro's of installing a 2nd generation intercooler to a 1992 W 250. Does it fit good? What has to be modified? How does it affect the performance of the truck? Does it raise or lower boost numbers? It would lower EGT's because it packs more air into the cylinder's, correct? In the search I performed, the only one i saw that had this done was Paul Herioux, please let us know Paul (or anyone else who has done it) how it affects our trucks.



John

 

[Hutchew]

I was gonna do it.............

but it would have been a PIA to make it fit with the stock core support. There is a 'box' welded to either side of the radiator that would have to be seriously modified in order for the inlet/outlet of the 2nd gen cooler to fit through. Not to say it couldn't be done, I just didn't have the time or the will to do it then. Now that I'm chasing EGT's though, I may reconsider. I would imagine it would help lower temps, in my case anyway, since I have a 98 engine with the bigger manifold intake. I don't know what it would do for a first gen motor, surely it would lower temps there, also. You would still have a restriction at your manifold intake tube, compared to the later models. It might not matter, though. Hmmmm..... not much help, was I?

 

[formula]

If you have AC, I'm pretty sure it won't fit. I've got the Banks intercooler and that one was a real bugger to get in there. The 2nd gen intercooler is thicker and taller.



Sean

 

[nascar mark]

It will take some serious mods to make it fit. I was measuring this up 2 weeks ago. Hutchew is right. Supports on either side of innercooler will have to be modified and height is also a issue. My air conditioning is another hasel.



It will be even harder trying to fit a 24v innercooler in my truck which is 1. 5" taller. I will be selling my innercooler soon after, which has been tested to over 50psi in the truck under boost.

 

[J DeMaio]

Nascar Mark:



What type of intercooler do you have and what would you want for it? I'm thinking that everything on our old trucks are too small. Air filter, exhaust, turbo, fuel settings Awe, the fun in changing this stuff is how we learn what works and what doesn't. I'm wanting to get alot more air and horsepower. I'd like to be at at least 250, maybe over 300 horse. So, If the second generation one won't work economically, Banks ones are expensive, what other one can I get, the bigger the cooler, the cooler the air, correct?



Thanks,

John

 

[nascar mark]

John,

I will be selling my original 1st gen cooler as I will be going over 500hp. $400 comes with all pipes from turbo to engine, including air intake with silicone boost hoses on all piping that will hold high boost pressures.

Yes, the bigger the cooler the more dense the air will be.



mark

PDR - Black Sheep Racing

 

[Underdog]

The fitting for my boost gauge was installed pre-intercooler

by a local mechanic. After a couple years,I moved the fitting

to the intake manifold. The boost reads the same at either

location. This tells me that the intercooler is not restricting

the air flow. Please tell me where I'm wrong. Is there something

that I'm not getting??

 

[nascar mark]

Your not thinking about this right. Boost is pressurized air. Don't mix that up with volume of air.

Think of it this way. Take 2 balloons. Fill 1 outside at 0* with a set amount of air. Fill the 2nd ballon inside at 70* with the same amount of air. Bring in the balloon from outside into 70* room and tell me what happens.

You guessed it, the outside balloon gets bigger and the inside balloon stays the same.

Why, because the outside air was more dense, so you could pack in more air at the same pressure. When heated the air has more volume to expand.



mark

PDR - Black Sheep Racing

 

[J DeMaio]

Mark:



The cooler you have now is the original stock one? What will you be going to? The one i have seems to be okay, I'm wanting a bigger one to get more air into the cylinders. Now, when my truck had only the straight pipe and K&N filter, I only made 10# of boost, is this normal? The reason I ask this now is because a guy I know said that the intercooler might be cracked or the boots might be bad but i never found any of these.



Thanks for the insight,



John

 

[nascar mark]

John,

Yes, stock one. I am buying a 24v cooler. Haven't heard of anyone running a 2nd gen or 24v cooler for above reasons. I am going to try modifing to fit. A stock cooler will support 250rwhp.

You should only need a larger one if you are towing.

Remember most sled pullers don't even use a aftercooler (innercooler)



10# is low. I see you have inj, filter and open exhaust. With out pump tweeks you should be 18# or above even with 21cm turbo housing. Stock trucks run 13-16#'s.

I would check for leaks by pressurizing your system and spraying dish soap/water mixture over everything, and look and listen for leaks.



mark

PDR - Black Sheep Racing

 

[J DeMaio]

Yes Mark, that was stock. Now, I'm making about 25# of boost. I do tow and want to make this truck as powerful as I can and also have it as reliable (keep it cool) as I can. What does a second generation cooler cost? How about aftermarket? Do you know of any companies that make them? Keep the great infor rolling!



John

 

[formula]

Originally posted by J DeMaio



So, If the second generation one won't work economically, Banks ones are expensive, what other one can I get, the bigger the cooler, the cooler the air, correct?

Thanks,

John

Well, not exactly

Let's say that you have an cooler that's too small... . it won't cool the charge air very well and your performance will suffer. If you have an intercooler of reasonable size, then it will provide sufficient cooling of the charge air and increase the charge air density and increase performance, without making the intake air too cold. An even bigger cooler will further cool the air to the point where it's going to become too cold and hurt your performance as well, especially in the winter. If you put on an enoumous cooler, it will be a waste of time and $ because you're at the limit of the temperature reduction dictated by the ambient air temperature.



Something else to consider is the turbocharger compressor efficiency. If you have a small turbo like our H1C's and try to make lots of boost with it, then it will make lots of heat as well. This will put an additional thermal load on the intercooler which is unnecessary. Putting in a bigger intercooler to get rid of the heat is just bypassing the source of the problem.



Then there's the issue of airflow. The airflow is going to increase with boost pressure and engine rpm. The actual boost pressure that you're going to need to run will be a function of how much fuel you want. From what I've read so far, the factory cooler should be quite sufficient for 300 rwhp.



When I had the Banks exhaust and a K&N airfilter as my only mods, I was making 13psi boost, MAX. Unlikely that you'd blow a boot with only 10#. Mine have held on at 30# no problem.



Hope this helps a bit,

Sean

 

[formula]

OH, I forgot to mention something. I have the Banks intercooler mainly because I didn't know better when I bought it. If I was to do it over again, I'd stay with the factory intercooler. That's not to say that it does not work well, it works just fine. I did not notice squat for a performance or mileage gain after I installed it. Still trying to figure out why I decided to keep it. Oh well. Maybe someday I'll find the inspiration to put the factory intercooler back in and see what happens.



Sean

 

[nascar mark]

25#'s That sounds better. 2nd gen coolers will go for what ever the market bears. There is a broken one on e-bay for $125 I think. Thats cooler only and who says it doesn't leak? The 1st gen cooler only is a transmission cooler if you look alittle deeper at it. ?



I personaly wouldn't buy a cooler without having it tested by a trusted shop. I'm sure there is shops out there that would make you a cooler but $$$$$$$$.



I am selling my stock setup which is complete from turbo to engine with expensive silicone boost hoses which would be perfect for a non-innercooled truck.



Remember if you plan on higher boost you will need silicone boost hoses and stronger clamps.



mark

PDR - Black Sheep Racing

 

[formula]

Originally posted by nascar mark

25#'s That sounds better.

Yes, I know, I've been lucky so far I'm gonna see about the silicone hoses really soon.



Sean

 

[Underdog]

Mark ,



Thanks for the info.



Underdog

 

[DPKetchum]

You guys are properly gonna say did what!I bought a Banks cooler four years ago or so and I did'nt notice squat eaither. Of course left new one on. Old one sat around shop for a year. Finally tossed it in dumpster!Oh well!

 

[jbolt]

Formula- What is the physical difference of the Banks cooler vs the stock one. Might it be that you have not reached a level where the Banks cooler would be of any benefit?



In general the inner-cooler is one piece of the breathing system. Without other changes to system maybe no practical gains can be seen. I don't know.



Has anyone done any measurements of the air temps pre and post inner-cooler? What about with the A/C on? Could we not actually be heating the air under certain conditions? Might be an interesting experiment to bypass the innercoller and see what happens.



Jay

 

[formula]

Jay,

The Banks intercooler is about 1cm thicker than the stock one. It also has a better core design which is supposed to remove heat from the charge air more effeciently.



It is very possible that I may not be making enough hp yet to make good use of the new intercooler. That is going to be put to the test soon enough Swapping the intercooler is a real pain with the AC condensor in the way, so I probably won't do that to test the old one.



Sean

 

[J DeMaio]

So Formula, you noticed NO difference in EGT's with the Banks Intercooler install?



I also wanted to ask, is there an approximate formula to see how much rear wheel horsepower your making by your boost numbers? I don't have a clue as to how much I'm making now.



John