3500 frame problem???

[XJSuperman]

I just came across this, regarding Dodge Box removal



http://www.dodge.com/bodybuilder/2005sbbgl/docs/dr/pbr.pdf

Looks pretty clear to me that they don't recommend because of 'vehicle certification'... NOT because of a frame issue. It clearly says that IF a box removal/alteration is done that the manufacturer/installer of said alteration must comply with the 'rules' AND stamp (or whatever) a certification on the vehicle after it has be so altered. It's pretty much a legality/warranty issue. Reworded I think you can basically take it as unless the company who installs your 'altered' truck bed CERTIFIES it then your warranty is gone and DC is not liable for any problems caused by said alteration... . BUT if it's CERTIFIED... then there is no issue. (or at least there shouldn't be)



It also says no cranes, dump beds, etc etc... but no where does it say a thing about a slide in camper... . and darn... I really wanted to use that crane on my truck :{



While concern was justified I truly believe this has been misconstrued and that the trucks are fine. As was stated quite a few times... with as many of us here... who do what we do with our trucks... we'd know of problems by now. ESPECIALLY since many trucks that are less than 1 year old have well over 100K miles. And if it is a different frame for the 2005 duallies... I imagine we'd have heard it here first and would have know before they hit the lots if there were any major issues.

 

[QWaller]

The whole point is that the people reading/inputting into this thread are really interested in facts rather than he said/she said beliefs. This is where no one can get any straight info. This is fine with some posters and not with others. I am a fact man myself.

 

[DBond]

I don't think "camper not recommended" in a owner manual is meaningful, unless they have a chart with different configurations. The manuals cover several models with different options and thus different payloads. Every pickup is supposed to come with a sticker or sheet in the glove box with a camper rating. It's been a federal requirement since the 70's, probably to address people putting big campers in 1/2 ton pickups. The camper load rating is pretty specific to each truck, with the options it has. The highest rating the manufacturer is allowed to give is the payload capacity minus 150 lbs for each passenger position in the vehicle, for a Quad cab that is 6 places for a total of 900 lbs. But they can rate it as low as they wnat.



All this info is in a big binder that every dealer has, but most salespeople don't know the info is there, or that the binder even exists. I have a copy of this "2005 Dodge towing, Slide-in Camper Applicatiion Chart"

There is a note on the chart that "all 4x4 models equipeed with snow plow prep packages... are not recommended for slide-in campers applications" The specific ratings given are by sales code (which I don't how to decode), Cab, engine, WB, Box, Seat, GVRW, and Camper Weight Rating. Of 12 configurations of 3500 4x4 shown, only one is "not recommended", it's a CTD DRW SLT with sales code DH8H42. A gas version of the same configuraton (but 11,500 GVWR) has a CWR of 3424 lbs. The same sales code and configuration except SRW has a CWR of 1396 lbs. And the same quadcab, DRW, and 12,000 GVWR but in ST trim, sales code DH8L42, has a CWR of 3531 lbs.



Yes this leaves many questions, like why going from a SLT DRW to a ST DRW gives you 3500 lbs of camper rating, and why taking off two rear wheels on a SLT has better camper capability than the DRW. And why is the SRW rating only 1400 lbs when the rating could be payload 3000 - 900 = 2100.



There are 12 configurations of 3500 4x2 shown and again the only not recomended are quadcab, DRW SLT, and the ST trim gets a camper rating.

I found that in '04 Ford says "not recommended" on every truck UNLESS you had the camper option, not that the truck couldn't handle a camper, they just didn't bother to do the calculation unless you paid the documentation fee.

 

[XJSuperman]

Believe it or not I happened to see a 3500 dually quad cab WITH a utility type bed on it today. Not sure what year it was but it was a 3rd gen. The truck looked pretty used so I'm sure it had some miles on it.

 

[DPelletier]

The whole point is that the people reading/inputting into this thread are really interested in facts rather than he said/she said beliefs. This is where no one can get any straight info. This is fine with some posters and not with others. I am a fact man myself.

Me too. The only fact so far is that nobody has any proof of even one truck with a cracked frame.



I applaud you guys for trying to get to the bottom of the issue, but unfortunately I don't think you'll ever get a definative answer from DC.



As far as a new frame is concerned, I do believe the new C&C will have a new frame for a number of reasons and that the chassis cab will have a higher GVWR and will be suitable for truck mounted cranes and other utility devices. Makes sense to me. I believe the 2nd gen C&C had a different frame from the regular pick-ups as well.



Dave

 

[rkressg]

When I picked up my 01 2500, it was equipped with 4x4, tow package, snow plow prep package, and a camper package, and I still got that yellow piece of paper that stated "not recommended for slid in camper use". I have beat the living snot out of my truck, loaded over 5000 in the bed (I thought the bed mounts were going to break) and never even put a thought to it.



I remember there was a recall on trucks for problems with the trailer hitch. They found that they would crack and fail under load (this was on my 99). When I took it to the dealer, they didn't even look, they just replaced the hitch. So, IMHO, if this was a major problem, I think D/C would have, at least, issued a TSB with regard to it being a problem. If it is a problem with commercial use applications (such as box truck applications) even if you get 10 years of constant loading and unloading before failure, I am sure that the truck will have lived a full life, and be in line for replacement.



We had a situation here in Pittsburgh with our Port Authority (Mass Transit System) and about 300 Neoplan Busses bought in '99. They did not have a frame of sufficient strength to handel the geography here, and they were breaking in half. By the time that they realized what was happening, there were many failures (picture a 40' bus laying with the middle the ground because the frame failed) and upon inspection of the fleet, almost every bus had a fractured frame.



All I am saying is, if it was a major issue, you would see many instances of failure, not just rumors. If one or two dozen trucks break out of the million or so dodge trucks produced each year, than that is not a problem.

-Rich

 

[JRMora]

Just to throw in a few cents worth of opinion (I haven't been able to get a word in edgewise!), if Dodge has a different frame for the DRW for '05, could they be trying to add enough meat to make the Dodge GVWR and payload catch up with Ford? After all, the '05 Ford ratings ARE much higher than the Dodges out now.



All other aside, I have 30,000 miles on my dually, its been loaded to the GVWR, I love it, and that's, that. I too am and Engineer (20+ years in the manufacturing industry) and I am well aware of the concerns/issues all manufacturers face with liability. I currently work in the industry that made McDonald's hot coffee famous (disposable food products - cups!) and let me tell you, liability is a huge reason why we do or say the things we do.



I read all the time about hot-shotters running 26,000#'s (or more) for 100,000+ miles per year in their third gens and none of them have had a problem (that has benn posted here). I'll never see that kind of load or use, so that should mean I'll be statistically unlikey to ever see a frame crack.



???



Go for it!

 

[Ol'TrailDog]

Q fumed:

I am a fact man myself

Okay, QWaller... you want the facts, and nothing but the facts:



"camper not recommended"



There, that should keep EVERYBODY, including the factoids, happy :-laf

 

[QWaller]

Yep, and when the day comes to load my truck high and heavy it will be time to sell and buy from a company with enough b*lls to back their trucks on paper. For you see, even with all of the Ford/Chevy issues I am confident that oil leaks and weak engines won't cause the foundation (frame) of the truck to crack. One can say what they want about Fords alll day long but it is hard to argue that they can haul a load and with good stability.

 

[BILLUA]

Qwaller, I drove a a 2005 ford 3500 Dually today with power stroke. I was impressed with how far Fords have come along. They have made up for the lack of V8 grunt with 4. 10 or 4. 30 gearing and coupling it to a 5 speed auto. It is a combination that works! They have brought their suspensions right in line with 3rd gen Dodges. The Chevy is not even in the same class as a Ford or Dodge. I will say this, the Chevy was made in Flint Mi and the Ford in Newark Guess where my new Dodge 3500 is from? Mexico. Guess what else, the Ford had a camper certification card in the glove box. Now, maintenance wise on the Ford, you better buy the plan because you can not get to anything on that truck. We shall see the longterm durability on the new Ford power train. Also, you can get the ford in 10 different color configurations, not 5 like Dodge. Also with the Ford, many different configurations are possible.



I WANT TO BE PERFECTLY CLEAR THAT THE ONLY REASON I AM TAKING DELIVERY OF MY 3500 TONITE IS BECAUSE OF THE CUMMINS ENGINE. ANY OTHER DEFAULT WOULD HAVE ME BUYING THE FORD IN A HEARTBEAT!



Cheers, Bill

 

[evldsl]

Same reason I bought mine, the big C

 

[abdiver]

Cancelled my order

I cancelled my order I will wait and see what develops I do hope there is not an issue, at this time I think that my be the case. But when I do get my truck it will be at Dave Smith's their customers service manager Rick was GREAT. I am still waiting for DC to call me as I have emailed them and left 2 phone messages for them to call. I will post back went I have more information.

 

[OLY-VU]

Bill... Be interesting to see how long it takes you to get a response from "DC", sounds like you've been persistent ... let us know how it goes...

 

[klenger]

Someone at DC wrote the stupid document that is causing all this discussion. It was done by a person, who has a computer and a telephone. Someone (a god maybe) should be able to call this person on the phone and ask for a real explanation. This whole mess could be cleared up in 30 minutes.



Any bets on this ever happening?



Remember, DC never came out with any real info as to why the exhaust brake was taken off the market either, inspite of significant discussion here about it.

 

[Tim]

Same reason I bought mine, the big C

I concur.



I started a thread on this not too long ago.

 

[Wayne M.]

OK, in regards to the camper issue, a friend and I both took the plunge last summer and got quad 04. 5's. Mine is a 3500 SRW and his is a 2500. Mine has the slip of paper in the glovebox allowing a camper and shows the placement for Cg and weights.

My friends 2500 has a similar slip of paper but it states that the truck is not rated for a slide in camper.

I have a friend in the truck body biz and I will need to speak to him on official business next week. If I can remember to squeeze it in, I will ask his opinion on this matter.

 

[KDoerr]

OK Here it is. I Alberta Canada There is no thing about putting flat decks on or even Campers on the trucks. I have a light oil field trucking operation and we have all dodge 1 tons from the years 2002-2005 and they all have flat decks and even rocket launchers on them and boys let me tell you we load those trucks up passed the GVW and with 40 foot drilling motors on and never had a problem. The only thing we do not like is that you can only put a 8 foot deck on the new trucks. the old 2002s we are running 12-16 foot decks. So if you have a problem with the 3g go to the 2g truck.

That is my two cents... !!

 

[LFalconer]

Good points from aseigworth Thanks!- welding and attachment to the frames seems to be the culprit.



I spoke to a DC tech whom I've know a number of years. He had seen 1 cracked frame on a 2nd Gen that had a dump bed on it. No other...



His feeling was that with the regular pickup bed, there likely won't be an issue. However he did say that if he was buying a truck for heavy utility / off road use, it would be a Ford.



One concern over the long term I have is corrosion. consider this frame does not have drain holes in the bottom, and the steel is 1/2 the thickness of C channel used in say a Ford. Overtime, in Northern / salty zones, especially if you live in gravel road areas, the fine slit and salt will mix inside the frame, with no way to be flushed out. The bottom of the frame will rust first. When this occurs, my view is the failure mode will be sudden, like hitting a bump loaded up, and bang - the frame is broke. Recall the old Jeep scramblers and CJ's. They had a box frame in the rear, same issue, no drain holes. I looked for a scrambler in the 90's to restore, and every one that I looked at had frame corrosion, some to a point I could stick a flat head screwdriver thru the frame. The scramblers were light enough that this usually wasn't fatal, but then again, I carry alot more weight in my bed / loaded on the GN hitch than a scrambler would.



I wonder if DC modeled the corrosion factor into the Finite Element modeling during design, and reran the simulations?



Personally - I'm not sure DC will give us an answer, and the corrosion element has me concerned personally. I buy diesel trucks to last 10-15 years, expecting to fix things along the way like alternators, fuel pumps, sensors, bearings seals, transmissions, but not frames. I am like BillUA - in that I drove an 05 Ford [my wife owns one, and after the vibe issue, and now the frame, she rubs it in that I shoulda bought a Ford] and I have towed the GN Stock trailer with both. The ford 6. 0 and Torqshift transmission works very well together, and the frame is built in the traditional C channel style. Ford has $2000 rebates on SuperDuty till April 4th... .



Thanks, Luke

 

[Kirwin]

Dodge Service Managers input

I discussed this issue with my friendly Dodge Service Manager last night. He just got back from a seminar that addressed this issue. According to him (and I trust him, he drives a CTD), the concern is that the bed of the truck provides load dispersion and stiffening that the frame needs when fully loaded to max GVWR. The concern is that if you remove the bed without providing equivalent dispersion of the load along the frame it may crack. Obviously if you drill the frame to install an aftermarket utility body the stresses will be increased locally at the attachment points. There is a kit that Dodge parts will be selling to provide attachment points to the frame without compromising its strength. He has on on order, and it costs about $75. 00. As I understand it, the kit is merely some brackets that go over the frame rails to provide attachment points for the utility body to attach to without drilling the frame. Ken Irwin

 

[sag2]

There is a kit that Dodge parts will be selling to provide attachment points to the frame without compromising its strength. He has on on order, and it costs about $75. 00. As I understand it, the kit is merely some brackets that go over the frame rails to provide attachment points for the utility body to attach to without drilling the frame. Ken Irwin

Are you sure he is not talking about the corner brackets required for the front of the bed for tool box installs?