3500 SRW Towing 18K Concerns

[RustyJC]

Section 522 Definitions govern in this case since Section 521 Definitions (non-commercial drivers license) defer to them. From TTC Section 521.001, Definitions:

(4) "Gross combination weight rating" has the meaning assigned by Section 522.003.
(5) "Gross vehicle weight rating" has the meaning assigned by Section 522.003.

Just as an extreme example, what would disqualify a Ford Ranger from operating at the conditions you cite from Section 621 (which have to do with bridge and road loading)?

Now, if a tort (civil) lawyer brings an action alleging that one was culpable due to operating a vehicle beyond its rated capabilities, where exactly do you think the court will look to define these ratings? Yup, the selfsame definitions I gave you - the values specified by the manufacturer.

These are the legal definitions straight from the governing code in the state of Texas. Argue against them if you want with your "personal limits", but there they are.

Rusty

 

[Bohemian]

Those are definitions, and yes that is what they mean :-laf

Definitions are not laws, and those definitions pertain to commercial drivers license requirements not vehicle size and weight.

Here is the law on size weight... gross vehicle weight rating is not mentioned once in that entire code, not even under definitions. Manufacturer isn't mentioned either. What is mentioned appears to be the same as Idaho. Don't exceed 20,000lbs for a single axle and don't exceed sidewall ratings on tires.

As clearly stated in the law, and not the definitions for commercial drivers license, tort law does not apply.

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/TN/htm/TN.621.htm



They are all published, you just have to know where to look.

Bounce part numbers on 3500 DRW and 2500's.

I won't personally exceed any published limit I can find. My personal limits are

FAWR: 5,200lbs based on OEM rating, the axle in my 2005 isn't rated higher anywhere. Unkown if the limit is the axle, suspension, BJ's, wheel bearings, etc... this, unfortunately, is very easy to exceed but usually by no more than 10%. Easiest when bed is empty and cab is full.
RAWR: 9,000lns based on wheel/tire combo. Axle is rated for 10,912 by AAM with a max capacity of 9,350lbs by Dodge on my frame/suspension. AAM states SRW and DRW configs have same ratings, but DRW gets a different outer wheel bearing for the added leverage of the wider/heavier tire/wheel combo. The different bearing has the same weight rating. Both inner/outer bearings are stronger in Dodge 11.5's than in GM 11.5's.
GVWR: 12,200lbs max rating my frame/brakes/steering/suspension/etc received. It could be stronger (many, many, many DRW's owners exceed this limit since they have a 9,350lbs RAWR and want to use it for campers and 5ers).

GCWR: This is doesn't get me too hot and bothered. It's mainly based on the ability to accelerate and maintain speed, well almost completely based on that. I know what Cummins published for max coolant temps for my 190° thermostat are, and I am not running that hot. Cummins limits are lower than the idiot light illuminates by 20-25°. I also don't need to exceed my published GCWR often, and have only done it once or twice.

Those are all based on mostly readily available information and knowledge of common components, so it's not a guess.

Ok. So what is your point. Stay within the published vehicular limits. I agree.

 

[AH64ID]

Section 522 Definitions govern in this case since Section 521 Definitions (non-commercial drivers license) defer to them. From TTC Section 521.001, Definitions:



Now, if a tort (civil) lawyer brings an action alleging that one was culpable due to operating a vehicle while beyond the manufacturer's rated capabilities, where exactly do you think the court will look to define these ratings? Yup, the selfsame definitions I gave you - the values specified by the manufacturer.

These are the legal definitions straight from the governing code in the state of Texas. Argue against them if you want, but there they are.

Rusty

I don't disagree that those are legal definitions, but definitions are not laws they are definitions. Those definitions do not in any way tell you what you can and cannot do, they simply define what GVWR and GCWR's are.

The link I posted is what Texas uses to govern weight, and nowhere on in that code is GVWR or GCWR. GVWR and GVWR are used for license requirements, and not for weight limits.

That is Texas code I posted, look it up if you want to.

Define Law

Define Definition

I got a chuckle out of googling "Define Definition"

Out of curiosity, do you exceed GVWR and GCWR? Looking at your sig you must be close if you don't.

Ok. So what is your point. Stay within the published vehicular limits. I agree.

Published isn't always on the door sticker.. that's my point.

My door sticker says 5,200/6,200/9,900.

 

[Bohemian]

Out of curiosity, do you exceed GVWR and GCWR? Looking at your sig you must be close if you don't.

Really? Where did you pull that from? Same place?

 

[AH64ID]

Really? Where did you pull that from? Same place?

For a guy who's first forum post was about 5th wheel specs....

The specs on his truck and trailer... did you look anything up? Or just talk out of your....

Closer on GVWR than GCWR, but was a simple question that wasn't directed at you.

Since you didn't do your own research, here you are.

2014 38RSSA
Dry Weight: 15,000 lbs.
Axle Weight: 8,000 lb. axles
Hitch Weight: 3,000 lbs. dry pin weight

2011 4x2 Ram 3500 DRW 6.7 4.10
GVWR 11,500
Payload 4,120
Max Towing 18,000lbs
GCWR 26,000

Snapshot says close, hence the question.

Two 150lb people, a 325lb hitch, and the dry hitch weight is most of the payload.. assuming an empty cab, only 2 people, and nothing else in the bed... and a pin weight that doesn't increase.

Again, why the question was asked.


BTW: Welcome to the forum!!!

 

[Bohemian]

For a guy who's first forum post was about 5th wheel specs....

The specs on his truck and trailer... did you look anything up? Or just talk out of your....

Closer on GVWR than GCWR, but was a simple question that wasn't directed at you.

Since you didn't do your own research, here you are.

2014 38RSSA
Dry Weight: 15,000 lbs.
Axle Weight: 8,000 lb. axles
Hitch Weight: 3,000 lbs. dry pin weight

2011 4x2 Ram 3500 DRW 6.7 4.10
GVWR 11,500
Payload 4,120
Max Towing 18,000lbs
GCWR 26,000

Snapshot says close, hence the question.

Two 150lb people, a 325lb hitch, and the dry hitch weight is most of the payload.. assuming an empty cab, only 2 people, and nothing else in the bed... and a pin weight that doesn't increase.

Again, why the question was asked.


BTW: Welcome to the forum!!!

'

18,000 lbs GVWR (close to where most people load theur 5ths) x 0.20 = 3600 lbs pin weight (x 0.25 = 4,500 lbs pin weight)

Optimal pin weight 3,600 - 4,500 lbs

5th wheel hitch weight with support brackets: 300-500 lbs. (maybe more)

Already 3,900-5,000 lbs weight from 5th wheel towing

No additional passengers, equipment, pets, or options added to the truck. Max Payload spec uses a single driver of 150 lbs. I weigh 200 lbs. That's another 50 lbs.


You have still not addressed where you pulled your assumption that I tow over weight from/ Though I think I know.

I actually have no need for your attempts at intimidation. Bye. People will make up their own minds.

 

[AH64ID]

18,000 lbs GVWR (close to where most people load theur 5ths) x 0.20 = 3600 lbs pin weight (x 0.25 = 4,500 lbs pin weight)

Optimal pin weight 3,600 - 4,500 lbs

5th wheel hitch weight with support brackets: 300-500 lbs. (maybe more)

Already 3,900-5,000 lbs weight from 5th wheel towing

No additional passengers, equipment, pets, or options added to the truck. Max Payload spec uses a single driver of 150 lbs. I weigh 200 lbs. That's another 50 lbs.


You have still not addressed where you pulled your assumption that I tow over weight from/ Though I think I know.

I actually have no need for your attempts at intimidation. Bye. People will make up their own minds.

Where is that assumption located? It's not one I made, I don't even know what you drive or tow. You may as well have a Yugo with a ski rack for all I know. No where in this discussion, or ANY of your 8 posts have your rig, trailer, weights, or towing habits been mentioned, discussed or questioned. The only thing we know about you or your vehicle is that you weigh 200lbs, that's it. It's your first day on the forum and you have yet to go so far as to introduce yourself, but are assuming that I am attacking your overweight towing but forget you haven't told us anything about you. I can tell you where I think your ASSumptions have come from, but I wont bother to assume... I'll wait for you to introduce yourself.

Who is trying to intimate you. You made some statements and I asked some questions, you also made some statements about questions that were not directed at you, or anything you had posted. Yet those comments were anything but useful.

Based on your own math my question to RustyJC was not unfounded... yet looking tow posts up you appeared to take offense to my question of another member, a simple question at that.

For the reference max payload does NOT include 150lbs for a driver, that is for the tow rating only. The drivers weight comes out of payload.

From the 2011 Ram Towing Guide, other years are similar.

Note that all the payload and Max Trail weights are ESTIMATED values.
1. Payload is rounded to the nearest 10 lbs. Payload = GVWR - Curb Wt.
2. Maximum trailer weights are rounded to the nearest 50 lbs.
Maximum Trailer Weight = GCWR - Curb wt. -150 lbs. (allowance for driver)

Most people load their 5er's to 18Klbs??? I would be very surprised if 10% of the 5er market had GVWR's of 18K lbs, that is a BIG 5er.

 

[RVTRKN]

If manufactures GCVWR are the DOT guidelines and would render the vehicle illegal if over that, then why was I able to register my C&C for 26K (total weight in combination legally registered to haul) when my Dodges GCVWR is 23K. On the other hand if you put tires rated for 20K per axle on a 1/2" steel shaft for an axle, that would qualify it for a huge law suit, if you were able to get past the DOT/State Troopers. The only thing DOT cares about is the axle ratings THAT ARE ADVERTISED ON THE DOOR STICKER, now if your within the tire rating that legally fit the wheels, then DOT might overlook the door rating. The same for a trailer axle rating, axle rating is what DOT goes by and will enforce it if your over it. Brakes are also considered into the factor. BOTTOM LINE, if your licensed, registered and insured for the weight your pulling and stay within AXLE ratings, a lawyer would have an uphill battle trying to sue you.

 

[RustyJC]

If manufactures GCVWR are the DOT guidelines and would render the vehicle illegal if over that, then why was I able to register my C&C for 26K (total weight in combination legally registered to haul) when my Dodges GCVWR is 23K. On the other hand if you put tires rated for 20K per axle on a 1/2" steel shaft for an axle, that would qualify it for a huge law suit, if you were able to get past the DOT/State Troopers.

I never said the manufacturer's GCWR established the DOT guideline - rather, I stated that it could be used in a tort law action as prima facie evidence of operating a vehicle beyond its capabilities. The state registration of GCWR is a road use tax, not an endorsement of the suitability of a vehicle to operate at that rating - you could register that hypothetical Ford Ranger for 26K GCWR as far as the state is concerned.

The only thing DOT cares about is the axle ratings THAT ARE ADVERTISED ON THE DOOR STICKER, now if your within the tire rating that legally fit the wheels, then DOT might overlook the door rating. The same for a trailer axle rating, axle rating is what DOT goes by and will enforce it if your over it. Brakes are also considered into the factor. BOTTOM LINE, if your licensed, registered and insured for the weight your pulling and stay within AXLE ratings, a lawyer would have an uphill battle trying to sue you.

Not really - tort law operates on the premise of contributory negligence/culpability and only requires convincing a jury that your actions were not those of a reasonable individual under the same circumstances. Knowingly operating a vehicle over the manufacturer's rated capabilities for that vehicle certainly make for an actionable premise to file suit under tort law, and the chances are pretty favorable that a non-technical jury could certainly conclude that such operation results in some degree of culpability on the part of the defendant.

Again, don't confuse DOT enforcement with tort law - they are two separate entities. Just as you stated in your 20K - 1/2" axle scenario, DOT compliance does NOT render one immune from tort action.

Rusty

 

[AH64ID]

Tort law still requires an actual law to be in place, and violated. I have yet to find a code that regulates a driver to GVWR or GCWR, do you have a sample of one? Please don't give us definitions as laws again, two very different things.

I also haven't found what RV said about axle weights to be true, at least in Idaho. While putting 10Klb tires on a Ranger and loading it up isn't correct, there is some room for movement away from door axle limits on some vehicles.

Ignorance of the law is not a defense, so I genuinely would like to see where the code states GVWR, GCWR, or AWR's are legally binding. I have spent a lot of time reading thru the code here in Idaho and cannot find anything about it. My ISP buddy thought there was and his research also came up empty.

 

[RustyJC]

All the plaintiff's attorney has to allege is that his client(s) suffered personal and/or financial injury or death due to the reckless operation (whether so cited by law enforcement or not) of the defendant, such reckless operation specifically being operating a vehicle beyond its capabilities as defined by the manufacturer. Reckless operation is the legal basis of the suit; operation of a vehicle beyond its rated capabilities is the specific alleged reckless action. At that point, it's up to the jury to decide the culpability (total, relative or none) of the defendant.

The legal definition of "reckless", in Texas at least, is:

A person acts recklessly, or is reckless, with respect to circumstances surrounding his conduct or
the result of his conduct when he is aware of but consciously disregards a substantial and
unjustifiable risk that the circumstances exist or the result will occur. The risk must be of such a
nature and degree that its disregard constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of care that an
ordinary person would exercise under all the circumstances as viewed from the actor’s standpoint.

Rusty

 

[RVTRKN]

now if your within the tire rating that legally fit the wheels, then DOT might overlook the door rating. The same for a trailer axle rating, axle rating is what DOT goes by and will enforce it if your over it.

While putting 10Klb tires on a Ranger and loading it up isn't correct, there is some room for movement away from door axle limits on some vehicles.

I did cover the grey area concerning axle weight, but Brakes are the biggest defining factor in engineering an axle rating, tires are fitted to match the axle rating, not to fit the tire rating. In other words the axle is designed first, THEN, the tires are found to match.

Rusty, if attorneys decided who is right and wrong or the intention of the defendant, then we would live in third world banana republic country. They can take you to court, if a judge thinks there's merit, but the jury will decide the case.

 

[RustyJC]

Rusty, if attorneys decided who is right and wrong or the intention of the defendant, then we would live in third world banana republic country. They can take you to court, if a judge thinks there's merit, but the jury will decide the case.

Wow, we really have a communication problem here. Again, I never said that an attorney determines right or wrong - an attorney just brings an allegation to court. The trial jury determines guilt or innocence and (in the case of civil law) the degree of culpability (if any) of the defendant. From my earlier post:

At that point, it's up to the jury to decide the culpability (total, relative or none) of the defendant.

Rusty

 

[Bob V]

Attorneys do NOT work for free. They are not going to take a case they might not win unless someone is paying the bill. Lets play out the scenario. You where over the max GCVW and lost control going down a hill and crossed the center line. MOST likely the law enforcement will have sighted your for speeding or driving too fast for conditions. This is because it is the easiest to prove. If they try to get you for over weight how will they prove it? They would have to haul all the parts from the accident and get them to a scale. They could never get exact axle weights because everything has ben moved around by the accident. Simple part is you where over the line, you were at falt and YOUR INSUANCE co will have to pay. The fact that you are over weight is NOT what cased the problem, the fact that you could not control it was.
Here is what gets me. EVERY DAY people exceed the posted speed limit. This is a violation of laws and DOES cause accidents. No one gets on the board and preaches about it though. I have posted many times, the single most important safety devise when towing heavy is the driver. If you don't drive slower, give more room ahead of you, keep focused on what's going on around you, your more likely to have an accident. It really is simple, it takes more time and distance to stop the heavier you are, doesn't matter if your at max weight, 1,000lbs under or 1,000lbs over. Driving intoxicated 100 MPH in you UNLOADED vehicle is much more dangerous than being diligent in you overloaded truck

 

[RustyJC]

I really don't consider this discussion "preaching". Look back at the premise of the original post - towing an 18K GVWR 5th wheel with a SRW truck. The responses vary from "manufacturers' weight ratings are meaningless", "legally, only DOT compliance matters", "only the manufacturers' GAWRs matter" and "manufacturers' weight ratings are NOT meaningless since they correlate to legally-recognized terms that could well show up in a tort action". It's up to the individual what he/she does with the weight ratings the manufacturer provides, but for someone to say that such ratings are meaningless under the law and can be ignored without any risk of consequence is the underlying premise of much of this discussion, at least from my point of view. As to how likely an incident is to wind up in court, if I bump into the rear of a minivan that cut me off and slammed on its brakes to make a turn and I wrinkle its bumper cover, not very likely, but if I slam into the side of a loaded school bus that pulled into my path from a side street, I would pretty much bet on it!! The risk/reward equation in such a scenario is just too tempting for a lawyer NOT to get involved.

Each individual is free to do whatever he/she wants in this matter, but at least they may be more aware of potential ramifications of their chosen actions. Providing information in that regard is a whole different ballgame than "preaching".

Rusty

 

[Bob V]

In Oregon, when towing a RV, the door sticker is NOT used for max weight. There is a formula for max weight per tire, or the easy way is the tires posted max weight and that is what they go by. Changing tires does change you max weight in Oregon. There is also a max axle weight of 20,000lbs and the "bridge calculations" but that really doesn't apply till your close to 80,000lbs. If you are towing commercial you need to license your truck to the weight you want to haul. I PERSONALLY know people whose trucks are licensed way over there door sticker, tow that weight, drive for a living, stop at and are inspected DOT stations and are completely legal. Now I will agree that doesn't necessarily make them safe and they probably should consider a larger truck, but they are legal. I know one guy that did go from a 3500 DRW Ram to a Volvo single drive axle and he was very happy, better brakes and he got better MPG too. When it comes down to it, it is not the weight, it really is the driver

 

[RustyJC]

I PERSONALLY know people whose trucks are licensed way over there door sticker, tow that weight, drive for a living, stop at and are inspected DOT stations and are completely DOT legal. Now I will agree that doesn't necessarily make them safe and they probably should consider a larger truck, but they are DOT legal.

Fixed it for you.

Rusty

 

[Bohemian]

Really???

Do you think people want to be safe and buy their truck/trailer combination based on what expensive attorneys might be able to defend in a time consuming trial after having had to hassle with the police?????

Here's a clue: be safe and stick to the specs. You will have no need to defend being overweight.

 

[AH64ID]

I did cover the grey area concerning axle weight, but Brakes are the biggest defining factor in engineering an axle rating, tires are fitted to match the axle rating, not to fit the tire rating. In other words the axle is designed first, THEN, the tires are found to match.

Rusty, if attorneys decided who is right and wrong or the intention of the defendant, then we would live in third world banana republic country. They can take you to court, if a judge thinks there's merit, but the jury will decide the case.

Not really true. The axle used on a 2500 CTD and 3500 DRW is the same and has the same rating and the same brakes. There are 3 different Dodge RAWR's on door stickers. So tires are not fitted to an axle rating in the case of SRW HD pickups. The same axle/tires has 2 different ratings based on 2500 or 3500 SRW, neither of which are the tire limit or axle limit, or suspension limit. The SRW limit is close to tires, but not at tire limit like it is on some older pickups.

So it's very grey on SRW HD pickups.

Fixed it for you.

Rusty

It's only fixed by the laws you have not been able to provide. DOT legal yes, but where is it illegal.


Please show a law that states it's illegal, or stop preaching it. It either exists or it doesn't, let's try to stick to facts and not opinions when talking about active laws and illegal activity.

 

[Bohemian]

Actually, it's not about laws but rather regulations, regulation agencies interpretation of regulations, previous court decisions, and enforcement policies.