370 Nozzles in our injector bodies?

[R.E. Miller]

I heard from a buddy at work that this will work. If it does, is it worth it, and how much time will it take to have that done? And, of course, has anyone here done that to their truck?

Thanks,

Russell

 

[Midnite]

I was wondering about this myself. Awhile back, Power Wagon mentioned that he had tried taking some 215 injectors from a 2nd gen 12 valve and swapped some parts around so they'd work in a 1st gen 12 valve. Apparently it wasn't that successful, and they didn't even make as much power as the PW injectors if I remember right.



I would very much be interested in finding an injector that could flow as much fuel as the Lucas PODs, but has a better spray pattern (ie, more holes in the tip). The Lucas' have only four holes, the PWs and 215s have five, and I'm not sure of the others. Theoretically, other options might be 300s, or DD II or IIIs.



I've never swapped nozzles from the later 12v style injectors, so I have no idea what potential problems there might be, but I would love to hear more about this one!



Mike

 

[BushWakr - RIP]

Hmmmm... . stay tuned to the same bat channel, same bat time, things can develope when you least expect it.....



The Lucas flow more than a stock 370, but that doesn't answer your question about 5 hole,or spray angle/pattern... ... . see above. .





Bob.

 

[nascar mark]

Originally posted by BushWakr

Hmmmm... . stay tuned to the same bat channel, same bat time, things can develope when you least expect...



Bob.

Thanks Bob,

I will be testing 10 hole injectors soon. As Bob says, Stay tuned.

 

[DPKetchum]

I priced the only diesel performance shop in greater Atlanta i could find and he said he used (I think)marine injector inserts etc in old injector housings(from owners truck)and they made lot's of power and smoke etc. Comminted if truck ran strange afterwards it would need pump overhaul due to being weak!All of that and the price quoted made me nervous so I bought new injectors at a lot less money. But this is how he stated he did performance injectors. Said he swapped injector guts into old housings. I've read he does hold some sort of record on qtr mile run in a first generation(I think) or eigth mile?

 

[formula]

What about the issue of injection pressure and "popoff pressure"? Aren't the injectors designed for use with the p-pumped engines made to operate at much higher pressures than our VE pumps? I realize this thread started about nozzles, but I thought I'd ask about the pressure issue anyway.



Sean

 

[Power Wagon]

Yes, it can be done.



It would have to be done by a diesel injection shop where the guys know thier stuff and have some "donor" injectors to steal parts out of. (core 2nd gen truck injectors)



You can set the pressures to work with the VE pump.



When it's all said and done... the question is: Why?



As far as I know (and this is not an authoritative statement on it), I believe the 370's have only 4 large holes. This would tend to get you blue and black smoke in pretty serious quantities, especially with the lowered pop-off pressures for the VE pump.



If you're going to spend that much... . I might suggest you take some PW injectors (lots of holes) and have someone with experience "modify" them.



I'm not much of a fan of modified injectors... but with the limited amount of fuel the VE can cram, it would be best to burn as much of it as possible and have as little as possible blow out the tailpipe as unburned hydrocarbons...



But what do I know? I've been called "picky" before

 

[Midnite]

Originally posted by Power Wagon

If you're going to spend that much... . I might suggest you take some PW injectors (lots of holes) and have someone with experience "modify" them.

Well... I wouldn't say lots of holes--the ones in my truck have five holes.



The "why" question (at least for me) is easily answered: I want injectors that flow more fuel than the PWs, but which don't smoke as much as PODs. To me that means more and smaller holes.



I'm extremely interested to hear about Nascar Mark's testing of these 10 hole injectors he mentioned.



Mike

 

[Power Wagon]

The problem with the Lucas injectors isn't even so much about the number of holes, but the tip design. It traps liquid fuel under the nozzle tip, and also has spray holes that are shaped different.



this results in raw fuel entering the combustion chamber at inappropriate points - causing blue smoke.



It's NOT hazardous at all, it's just that the nozzle isn't the cleanest design out there.

 

[formula]

Ah, horsefeathers, the POD's don't really smoke that much. Under part-throttle I can hardly detect any smoke at all. If I romp it when on low boost I'll get a nice black puff and then the smoke is considerably reduced when boost goes up. It's a loooong way from being able to completely fog out an intersection:{



(btw... I like smoke, which seems to contradict the views of the EPA and law enforcement personnel )



Sean

 

[Power Wagon]

Smoke isn't necessary.



My truck makes very little, pulls well, and is respectable on the dyno, though no ball of fire.

 

[BushWakr - RIP]

While I don't care too much for heavy smoke either, I can live with a bit of it. .

Having said that, I also think PW is right about it not being necessary for the average daily driver. Part of the problem is indeed the tip/hole design, lower release pressure due to pump limitations, but there is another issue as well.....

That is, our 1st Gen's do not flow air worth a rotund rodents rump...

The head is the poorest flowing of all the CTD's, and the engine needs air to burn the fuel. PW has some pretty decent and CLEAN numbers from his truck.

A properly ported/polished head, custom turbo combination, better charge air intake horn, and exhaust manifold would likely clean up nearly all the smoke that come with the POD's AND a turned up pump.



I am talking to someone about some redesigned injector tips now.

Also looking at total time to complete the fuel discharge cycle too...

They are not the same as what mark is referring to. .

One of the thoughts is a redesign of the EDM'd hole itself... . how or if it will work out is to be determined, after all, lots smarter guys than me and my friend have been down this road before.

Unfortunately we are seeing the result on NO work being done on our generation of trucks anymore because of age and a small market... (read, little profit margin)

There are one or two working on stuff for us and I only hope we support them when they come up with something that helps us take the next step in performance... if not, no one will ever likely do any more work in R&D for the 1st Gen trucks.



BTW, I've read that the upper end of operating pressure for our pump is about 8,000psi. That is at rated RPM, but what is the min. pressure of our pump when at idle, or less than rated RPM, AND is it a fairly linear line from min>max??? Anyone know what that "curve" looks like???



Bob.

 

[Power Wagon]

What parts are actually different, from say, a '96 engine?



And I mean, manifold, port design, and so on.



I was aware of the smaller tubes on the intercooler, intake elbow, and so on, but had not heard of any particular changes to the head.



hdm48 is interested in porting heads and Piers has a camshaft I wanna try out.



I'm guestimating my engine HP to be at least 260 and maybe as high as 280, and it won't hit over temp until you work it for a LONG stretch at 2500 or faster. It does display breathing difficulties because of it's propensity to get hot at higher RPM. But then, I'm running the 12CM turbo, too. I like the quick spool and low smoke, but sure wish sometimes it could flow more.