3rd gen timing the old fashioned way...

[100 Proof]

... maybe. Forget the electronics, I'm thinkin' hardware here Sportsfans.



This might NOT be doable, but bear with me for a minute because it MIGHT be doable. Given that some of us would like a mild timing option for towing and MPGs, I was wondering what it would take to move the cam sensor slightly. As I understand it, this sensor is examined at startup to initialize the injection timing and then is used only as a back up speed sensor to the crank sensor.



I think the way the crank sensor works (from reading the service manual) is that it has many teeth, but no TDC detection. The TDC detection comes from the cam sensor at startup. By looking at a diagram of the crank sensor wheel, it looks like it has 60 teeth. These teeth are looked at like an incremental encoder as they go past the Hall Effect sensor. With 60 teeth, that gives us a 6° increment.



The implication is that:



IF the crank sensor performs only as an incremental encoder and,

IF it is in fact counting in 6° increments,



THEN if we can find a way to either move the cam sensor the equivalent of 6° advanced, OR index the magnets on the back of the cam gear by 6° advanced, we might have a slick, code free, way to advance our timing by 6°!



This is likely to invlove some machine work on the rear timing cover. I'm NOT saying this would be easy or even possible, but there are enough sharp cookies out there to noodle on a possible solution.



Whaddya think??



100 Proof

 

[txhawg]

Are you nuts?

 

[CIverson]

Not sure if it will work, but on the old 5. 9l gassers you could open up the hole for the crank sensor and move it a bit to advance the timing.

 

[100 Proof]

Originally posted by txhawg

Are you nuts?

I hope I'm crazy like a fox. BTW, nice first post, welcome aboard the TDR.



100 Proof

 

[RankRam]

Originally posted by 100 Proof

I hope I'm crazy like a fox. BTW, nice first post, welcome aboard the TDR.



100 Proof

I like your thinking.

 

[qzilla]

There is a solution for those guys on the way.

 

[100 Proof]

Originally posted by qzilla

There is a solution for those guys on the way.

I expect you are NOT talking about the Edge solution. That one has been "on the way" for a long time. Please don't take this as an attack, but we've been waiting for a long time and that's why I'm exploring other options. Can you provide a little more detail? I. e. time frame, general description, without giving away the store?



Thanks!



100 Proof

 

[Forrest Nearing]

well, if you advance it 6* and there's no "TDC" on the wheel, wouldn't you just be back to square 1? it seems that you'd need to be able to move the hall effect sensor once the engine is running...



now, something in between? sounds doable! but to get 6* or more, you'd need to be able to move it on the fly.



FWIW, the Ford modular V8 guys use an aftermarket adjustable sensor bracket to adjust timing... I think you're crazy like a fox



Forrest

 

[MMeier]

6* , ain't that gonna be way to much advance, unless you're running ungodly amounts of fuel through the engine? FWIW, haven't figured out if you're crazy like a fox, or just been dipping into that 100 proof stuff a wee too much!!!

 

[100 Proof]

Actually, if it works the way I think it does, you shouldn't have to touch the crank sensor, only move the cam sensor by 6°. I'm heading out for the 4th, but if I get some time next week, I'll try and R&R the cam sensor to explore the possibilities. This is not something where you can dial in any timing change you want. It would only be in 6° fixed increments because the teeth on the crank gear are 6° apart.



The way I think this works, the crank sensor is used for engine speed sensing and has no "home" or TDC measurement capacity. The cam sensor has the ability to find "home" or TDC. It has a magnet on the back of the cam gear that must pass past the sensor to generate that signal. This is why the electronic controlled engines seem to crank longer, that magnet MUST pass the sensor at TDC. According to what I've read in the service manual, this is ONLY looked at during start up, then the whole operation runs off of the incremental crank sensor signal.



I'd really like others to read the pertinent sections of the service manual to see if they agree with my assumptions of how this works or point out where I missed something. BTW, I don't know if 6° is too much. From what I know of gas engines, it's probably helpful. Someone else can weigh in on that.



Guys, I'm just exploring options here since the box solutions haven't been materializing.



100 Proof

 

[100 Proof]

Originally posted by MMeier

... FWIW, haven't figured out if you're crazy like a fox, or just been dipping into that 100 proof stuff a wee too much!!!

It's all good. Let me know if you find out.



100 Proof

 

[Peter Campbell]

Isn't there a blank spot on the crank position tone wheel ? ( '04 305/355 ) would that set a code if the initial positions on the cam and crank transmitters did not line up every other revolution?????

 

[SRadke]

If you're gunna move it after the truck starts who says you need to move it 6°? The teeth will be whizzing buy and it seems to me you could move 2, 4 or even 8° of you want to.



-Scott

 

[100 Proof]

Originally posted by Peter Campbell

Isn't there a blank spot on the crank position tone wheel ? ( '04 305/355 ) would that set a code if the initial positions on the cam and crank transmitters did not line up every other revolution?????

I don't know. I'll have to check. Maybe you have to move both sensors?



100 Proof

 

[txhawg]

100 Proof wrote:



"I hope I'm crazy like a fox. BTW, nice first post, welcome aboard the TDR. "





Thanks for the welcome. It wasn't meant to be insulting. I just have to wonder why you would want to go through all that trouble, then have the magnets you re-positioned fall off and screw it all up. I have seen guys do this with their fuel injected Harleys. I would much rather pay for the experts to design a reliable electronic method of advancing the timing.

 

[100 Proof]

Originally posted by txhawg

... I would much rather pay for the experts to design a reliable electronic method of advancing the timing.

So would the rest of us, but were gettin' old waiting for a solution. Maybe we should just be more patient, but our firmware doesn't always have that option enabled. Again, welcome to the TDR.



100 Proof

 

[Forrest Nearing]

Originally posted by SRadke

If you're gunna move it after the truck starts who says you need to move it 6°? The teeth will be whizzing buy and it seems to me you could move 2, 4 or even 8° of you want to.



-Scott

I'm just saying that if you want MORE than 6*, you'd have to move it when it's running IF there's no 'home' or TDC reference...



you could go between 0 and 6* advance by just moving the sensor and leaving it there all the time.



if there's a TDC reference, you could advance it as much as you want while stationary, and that's where it'll stay. that's how the Ford modular engines are... the aftermarket offers a little billet aluminum sensor bracket that's slotted to allow advancing the timing.



Forrest

 

[TxDieselKid]

Originally posted by 100 Proof

I expect you are NOT talking about the Edge solution. That one has been "on the way" for a long time.



100 Proof

1P,



Please concider this, how long did we have to wait for the new TST for the CR? Was it worth the wait with what all else was out at the time? Could the Edge be the same way in breaking new ground? I'm sure you dont' know and I don't either, just trying to open up an ave. as to why it IS taking so long.



Andrew

 

[qzilla]

Originally posted by 100 Proof

I expect you are NOT talking about the Edge solution. That one has been "on the way" for a long time. Please don't take this as an attack, but we've been waiting for a long time and that's why I'm exploring other options. Can you provide a little more detail? I. e. time frame, general description, without giving away the store?



Thanks!



100 Proof

I do not know what Edge is doing?



In 6 weeks we are expected to re-release our pressure + timing module. We did this a long time ago with good success, but it did have some bugs. We beleive that we have the bugs out now and we are in the process of rebuilding that module. Everything is expected in 4 weeks, but I would say at least 6 to get out.



In the next week or two we should be asking for beta testers.



I know you guys have been waiting a long time that is why we are trying to release this module again. I think the first time we did it we were too early and for the most part no one was ready for it as they were only wanting fuel stretch. I believe that fuel stretch is and can be ok, but I think that there are inherent problems with it. We have been working on it for a while, but unless we find the magic button we are not going to release it.



We think that the best overall solution will be a highly adjustable module that does both pressure and enough timing to make a difference. I know that certain manufactures claim timing advance, but the only one that has really proven itself has been TST. I think the TST has good ideas, but might be too much for the masses.



I am not going to say exactly what we are going to do, but there will probaby be a mild and a slightly wild version of the module we are planning to release. We also plan for there to be a timing only position for you guys with the fuel stretch modules. We will also have light fueling and heavy fueling.



As things come together I will let you guys know.



I will say about 3 months ago we released 150 of these quietly and they seem to be very reliable and trouble free.



Quad

 

[GWoody]

When you go looking for beta testers give me a pm, I would be interested.