Guns, Bows, Shooting Sports, and Hunting 4,000 fps, who's been there?

[Jeff L]

Nothin' shot at knows the difference 'tween a bullet belched out of a muzzle at 800 fps, or 4,000 fps. The shooter doesn't even know, unless there's a chronograph involved. Well, for the purpose of this discussion there is a chronograph involved, and when you see the digits reflected back at you in excess of 4,000 fps - you can't help but grin - inside and out.

My current favorite for tickling that barrier is the .204 Ruger, followed very closely by the .220 Swift. The Swift is a far more versatile round and with heavier bullets completely capable of swattin' "big" game, though not at the 4,000 fps mark (out to reasonable distance). Lighter bullets in the Swift make it a 4,000 fps varmint/target rocket. The Swift's heavier dose of powder makes it less enjoyable to shoot than the Ruger for several reasons, namely expense, loudness, and recoil. The Swift isn't a punishing chambering, but some days I'm slingin' several hundred rounds down range, and the toll begins to mount - to the point of "okay, enough." That lil' .204 Ruger however couldn't generate enough recoil to make you blink twice, even if you tried to run the world out of powder. One of my .204's is a heavy bugger - by design. With a little effort on your part, you can actually see impacts while looking through the scope, and at 4,000 fps, it doesn't take long for that to happen!

My entries, the 220 Swift, and .204 Ruger.
Yours?

 

[LFarmer]

i second the .204! I love my ruger #1.

 

[TJJEEPER]

I have a Ruger in 220 Swift. The best I've gotten was 3850 but farting around with anything less than 50 grain bullets wasn't very accurate. I tried! I really wanted to see 4000. My reloading stuff is out in the shop but IIRC I settled on 55 grain Hornady Boat tails @ ~3800. With a few thousands off the lands I got to way less than 1' MOA. Somewhere I still have the target with a quarter sized group @ 200 yards. Very happy! It was my ground varmint load. Then they started the NO LEAD in my area for shooting anything but paper. Been a while since I shot that gun.

 

[Jeff L]

In all the loading and shooting I've done, I only retained one paper target - it's hangin' on the wall above my reloading bench. It's from a Weatherby Super Varmint Master, chambered in .220 Swift. My understanding is that rifle was only offered in single shot configuration, and this one fit that bill. It belongs to a dear friend of mine, and he asked me to work up loads both for varmint, and hunting purposes. I chose Barnes bullets for both tasks, as they offer no-lead hunting bullets, and a light grain-weight varmint bullet (designed to break the mythical 4,000 fps barrier). Anywho, the varmint bullet proved to be wickedly accurate in that rifle. One five shot group has to be looked at with a magnifying glass to determine that it's not one hole (shot at a measured 100 yards). That's the target that resides above my bench.

I've tried many times to barter, buy, borrow-'n'-forget that rifle, but to date it still resides with my friend. *sigh*

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

In the 1980s iirc Handloader had a humor article on the .04/50 which was a wildcat from a 4 caliber needle in a necked down .50 BMG case.

 

[04blackcherry]

Buddy has a 22/284 wildcat that does 4000+. I believe he has a twist for heavier bullets in it also.

 

[KBurgoyne]

In the 1980s iirc Handloader had a humor article on the .04/50 which was a wildcat from a 4 caliber needle in a necked down .50 BMG case.

wouldnt that bullet just disintegrate unless it was made of adamantium and coated in magic.

 

[Jeff L]

My all time favorite spoof article was written by John Barsness (also a Handloader writer). He wrote it in such a fashion that many took it literally, and that triggered an onslaught of folks walking into gun shops asking to see the now infamous B-29. Have a friend in the sporting goods business, and to this day he'll get the ocassonal inquiry!

4,000 fps however is no spoof, and it's really neat, though not easy, or common.

No .19 caliber shooters in the crowd?

 

[BIGNASTY]

Have been watching this thread and had to wait until my Brother-in-law got in touch with us. I asked him about a rifle that he attained from his Father and the FPS of the 224 Weatherby Magnum ammo that he hand loaded for it. He was confused with my question as to Why? I told him about this thread, his comment was that they wont believe it anyway but if you must, take a look in my reloading journals and good luck??

BIG is a freak when it comes to his reloading data, when looking at his journal it shows a

45gr Spitzer SD.128, 31.9 gr, IMR-3031, Rem 9 1/2 primers Wheatherby Brass Chronograph-ed 4033 FPS In his comments section, Its highly radical accuracy makes this load unusable, bullet spread 1" to 2.5" at 200 yards. use of Norma Brass made only marginal difference. Pressure indicators were at Max on once fired brass and over on brass used 3 or more times.

45gr Spitzer, SD.128 32gr, IMR-3031, Rem 9 1/2 primers Wheatherby brass, Chronograph-ed at 4100 FPS comments group size exceptable One hole 3 round group to 1" spread at 200 yards, use of Norma Brass made one hole 3 round group on 3 different groups. Pressure indicators were at Max on once used brass and over on brass used 3 or more times

Kurt

 

[Jeff L]

I'm a coward, and only stick to published loads, won't even swap primers, or brass - let alone bullet manufacturers. The thought of questioning another's experiences wouldn't cross my mind, if he says he did it, as far as I'm concerned - he did it.

I searched high 'n' low for a bullet/powder combination that'd been pressure tested at 4K in the 6mm's, can't find one. If I could I'd be tryin' to wear that chambering out. Seems that velocity is reserved for light (read target/varmint) chamberings.

Not that I mind high-BC bullet at lower velocity, they are of course quite capable.

 

[BIGNASTY]

BIG's got a rifle for this winters pelt hunting that's been around forever. He had a 243 Win put together, by a Gunsmith we use. Our Yotes, cats and other critters that are hunted for pelts are taken usually at long distances, in less that ideal winter conditions with the always present wind blowing. A little bullet weight is most welcomed as long as they are head shot or bullets are constructed well enough that they don't blowup on impact. High powered scopes, accurate rifles are whats needed for a head shot on a small cat at three to four hundred yards, especially when the bullet is threaded threw brush to take the quarry.

Kurt

 

[Jeff L]

A .244 with enough twist to handle the 105 grain-weight bullets in my opinion is top of the heap for that type of duty. Flat "enough", fast "enough", and buck the wind like no other bullet.
Simply outstanding. The A-Max won't come apart like V-Max either, perfect for what you're doing.
Sounds like you folks have it figured out, and have a lot of fun in the process.

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

I had a 6mm/.284 with 31" barrel that gave over 3500 with the 100 gr. Win powerpoint. I never tried the lighter stuff but they whould have made around 4000 I supppose.

 

[Jeff L]

The parent of your chambering (.284 Win) just never really gained traction with the hunting crowd, but it (and it's variants) sure has the competition shooters in a tizzy. My favorite adaptation of the .284 is the 6.5x284, and it's newer twin the 6.5x284 Norma. With the bullets available for that caliber, and the capacity of that case, there's nothin' on this continent it won't handle. Recoil, and noise are on the pleasant side of the ledger as well, even in a lightweight rifle.

 

[terb]

I like my 17HMR for prairie dogs!!

 

[Jeff L]

They are slick!

Don't currently own one, 'cause many years ago I fell for one of the greatest fallacies ever perpatrated - "you'll save money by reloading".
The .17 HMR (as the name implies) is a rimmed cartridge, which limits the shooter to buyin' shells (which also makes the shooter a whole lot smarter 'n me).

*Now that I think of it, I'm troddin' a similar path with this Dodge/Cummins thing. Gunna save a few hundred on fuel by spendin' several thousand, and a lifetime of learnin' the hard way gettin' there!

 

[GHarman]

Well, thought I would chime in on a couple of subjects.
4000 ft/second is screaming fast, for sure!
In the old days reloading components were not as diverse as they are today!
A few highly talented experimenters (Barnes, in this example) designed and made limited production bullets that were long and heavy for the caliber , i.e. 90 gr. .228" and the 80 Gr. .224 for the .224 Clark, etc.
The thought was/is that the higher sectional density and lower velocity would be superior to a low sectional density and extremely high velocity bullet at long distance. (Justified in the better bullet selection available today!)
Back then, the hand loader could touch 4000 FPS with 40 Gr, bullets in a .22/250, and there were some screaming wildcats that would get there, also!
The issue was barrel life and diminishing ballistic efficiency after several hundred yards. Those light weight pills are really wind sensitive.

I've burnt out a couple of tubes in short order with hot loads for the .22/250 and my first barrel burner, a 6mm/284. That one toted a 30" Douglas bull barrel with a 1-10" twist. IIRC the load was 58 Gr. of H-4831 and an 80 Gr. Remington Power LocKed hollow point! It was one of the premier bullets of the 1960's.
That thing was so fast that a direct hit on one prairie dog at 200 yards killed another standing a foot away, from the shrapnel from bullet and bone fragments.
The only thing left of the targeted critter was a strip of skin attached to its tail at ground zero. Was it doing 4000FPS when the bullet left the muzzle? I don't know! Chronographs were not widely available in those days! Lets just suggest if it wasn't, it was really close? The muzzle flash looked like an oxyacetylene flame, viewed from the side. That barrel lasted a total of 350 rounds! It had 2 1/2" of throat erosion, when I cut it apart to inspect the damage.

Jeff L. You mentioned that Reloading "doesn't save money"!
Hmm, Do you reload much ammo? How long have You been doing this?
If you start out today, from scratch. You are correct!
However, If you load significant quantities and shoot a lot, over a period of years the activity will amortize itself out to your favor!
This is just the quick and dirty version!
I know there are folks that shoot and reload far more ammo that I do. This old man doesn't know it all!:-laf
But I am not a beginner, in this endeavor, either!
GregH

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

Jeff, the .284 Win did gain some traction, with the Ultra Light Arms customers! Melvin told me once that it is the most popular cartridge for his rifles. It gives relatively high capacity while being short enough for the Model 20 (20 oz. action) which also uses the .30-06 size bolt face. The .350 mag/6.5 mm mag Rem is close but needs the magnum bolt face and hence a fatter, heavier bolt. The .284 case is already "improved" with minimum body taper and steep neck angle. I had Melvin make me a Model 20 with 28" stainless Douglas barrel and it gives 2850-2900 with the Hornady 175, and 3100 with the Hornady 154. Kind of makes it a .284 Win Mag. Not 4000 fps, but pretty quick for a hunting casrtridge.

 

[Jeff L]

GHarmon,

Good stuff, enjoyed it, and had to chuckle in regards to having to amortize reloading costs to "swing in your favor". I get it!

What started out as a farm kid in the ‘70’s wanting to shave a few nickels (wooden or otherwise) on the cost of less than a hundred cartridges for an arsenal of exactly two center fires, morphed into a man who over the course of many years spent a guilty-amount of treasure on firearms, equipment, and components to bolster what turned into a near obsession. Woe to anyone who thinks they’ll “save some money” reloading for the two, three, even twenty boxes of rifle, pistol and revolver cartridges they buy in a year’s time.

 

[Jeff L]

Joseph,

That's rarified air when you start talkin' Forbes rifles. Also tells me you were on the cutting edge pretty early on, 'cause Melvin has been branded as New Ultra Light Arms (NULA), for quite sometime now. Frankly I don't think there will ever be a practical cartridge, designed for big game hunting, that exceeds 4,000 fps in my lifetime. So what? Take your .284 Win as an example, it's always been capable, and with modern bullets, there's nothing on this continenet it couldn't do -with gusto!

I've have Magnumitise, I've had lightweight-fever, I've even had drilling, and double symptoms. I've gone full circle, and would happily climb the hill with a rifle in .224 caliber (twisted properly), or +.40 caliber (but low-pressure). What I've come to realize is that it's about two things: bullet placement, bullet composition. Wish I'd known that thirty-years ago!