44 mpg propane injection!! ??

[RailroadJim]

Read article in a Mopar mag, new msd injection on a 2001 dually set at 50% spray, they noted excellent power increase and best 44 mpg!! out of a stock truck, got it's own ecu that plugs two wires into the truck pcm. Would this work on our old simple trucks???

 

[RustyJC]

Large industrial dual-fuel engines run anywhere from 1. 5% to 4% pilot oil (diesel) to light off the balance of the fuel which is typically methane (natural gas). Brake specific fuel consumption isn't all that different when running in the straight diesel versus dual fuel mode. To oversimplify a bit, it still takes 2425 BTU/BHP divided by the engine's thermal efficiency (%) to generate each BHP.



At 44 MPG, it sounds like they're not figuring in the propane consumption.



Rusty

 

[HoleshotHolset]

There's an article in the March issue of Diesel Power Magazine with similar claims of increased MPG figures using bottle gas.



I'm calling shenanigans on both articles - just out of spite.



Matt

 

[RWWinslow]

RustyJC is dead on - can't get around the thermodynamic laws.

 

[phillips5]

Well if they can fill the bottles at work for free or something then I guess they save money. Otherwise propain isn't cheep either.

 

[Headshot zod]

You need to wire that thing to a second gen computer. The manual indicates that there two types of 2nd gen ones. An early and a later type.



So whats the difference between a first gen 'puter and a second gen 'puter.

 

[Chris and Sam]

maybe the 12 valve and 24 valve versions of ecm's

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Back in 2000 propane injection was new and fairly popular among a few TDR guys 'cause of improved MPG & cleaner oil due to more complete combustion. (HVAC was one of the guys who tried it). However, when calculating mileage with both fuels combined, guess what? No MPG gain at all.



Vaughn

 

[Headshot zod]

What people fail to realize is that although propane can be considered a power adder, when it comes to mileage all it really is, is a "fuel extender".



Now if you were running waste veggie oil and were using it. It wouldn't be that expensive as you really are only paying for the propane portion of your fuel usage. Plus cutting your emissions wouldn't be a bad bonus on top of that.

 

[CCoxVa]

How Bad Do You Want Rid Of That Truck??????

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

Back in 2000 propane injection was new and fairly popular among a few TDR guys 'cause of improved MPG & cleaner oil due to more complete combustion. (HVAC was one of the guys who tried it). However, when calculating mileage with both fuels combined, guess what? No MPG gain at all.



Vaughn

I have a good friend who runs a '94 Auto that gets significant increases in mileage due to propane. He gets 30-35 mpg out of a truck that weighs 10K all the time. He runs bio diesel and sparing amounts of propane. He gets near 30 on diesel and propane and 22-26 on diesel only.



the trick is getting the mix where propane is used as an additive and not a fuel.



If using it as a fuel it still takes XXX btu to get 1 hp. As an additive you can maximize the use of the fuel already present. With the right balance your overall consumtion will go down.

 

[RWWinslow]

How much propane and how much diesel is consumed per mile?

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

How much propane and how much diesel is consumed per mile?

10-20% propane based on type of diesel and engine speeds/loads. The metering of the propane is not fixed so you get different percentages of propane at different RPM/load combinations.



I don't know exactly how he does it but he has an electronic servo actuated valve feeding engine coolant to the vaporizer to keep the propane temperature VERY stable.



He's as geeky about propane as I am about computers.

 

[RustyJC]

If there were a mixture of fuels that would increase the thermal efficiency of an internal combustion engine by 50%, I would think that every over-the-road trucker out there would be taking advantage of it, especially in light of current fuel prices.



Rusty

 

[Headshot zod]

Mark, which kit does he have?

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

Mark, which kit does he have?

He started with the older ATS (salt lake, ut) and modified it, A LOT!

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

If there were a mixture of fuels that would increase the thermal efficiency of an internal combustion engine by 50%, I would think that every over-the-road trucker out there would be taking advantage of it, especially in light of current fuel prices.



Rusty

The reason why he can't sell it is... EPA reg's and the results are a due to his driving habits and careful monitoring if intake/exhaust temps, boost pressure, amd rpm. He made all of the electronics from industrial controls and RC plane spares.



He fiddles with it all the time. It's a hobby to him. Most customers couldn't and wouldn't pay close enough attention to it to make it work that well.



He also has a 12V. electronic engines do not respond as well as mechanical ones to fairly simple injection systems.



He did not change the thermal efficiency of the internal combustion engine. Propane acts as a catalyst to the diesel combustion process. . burns faster... It effectively increases timing in the injection system allowing the fuel to burn more completely. One of the byproducts of propane in the diesel process it NITROUS OXIDE :-laf ing gas . the combination of the two makes for a very complete burn of the fuel already present and because you are adding a small amount of fuel ( the propane) you need less diesel to accomplish the same work as before.

 

[Msilbernagel]

Mark,



It would be interesting to note his cost-per-mile, as that would include both the cost of #2 (or bio) and propane in the 'fully loaded' cost. It would help observers to gauge the potential returns.



That would answer the questions of those who've seen the systems of the past offer no 'net' gain in mileage.



There are so many 3rd gen postings complaining about mileage, you'd think that any solution with the potential to get them from 15mpg to anything near 30mpg would be met with massive support.



Any one or ones that could put together a reasonably canned solution would see that support in the form of sales - just look at the excitement surrounding Marco's MAD ECM products.



At the least, if you could help your friend get his 'lessons learned' posted, since he seems to have no interest in commercializing his work, we would all benefit from his efforts.



Thanks



Mark (different one!)

--

The reason why he can't sell it is... EPA reg's and the results are a due to his driving habits and careful monitoring if intake/exhaust temps, boost pressure, amd rpm. He made all of the electronics from industrial controls and RC plane spares.



He fiddles with it all the time. It's a hobby to him. Most customers couldn't and wouldn't pay close enough attention to it to make it work that well.



He also has a 12V. electronic engines do not respond as well as mechanical ones to fairly simple injection systems.



He did not change the thermal efficiency of the internal combustion engine. Propane acts as a catalyst to the diesel combustion process. . burns faster... It effectively increases timing in the injection system allowing the fuel to burn more completely. One of the byproducts of propane in the diesel process it NITROUS OXIDE :-laf ing gas . the combination of the two makes for a very complete burn of the fuel already present and because you are adding a small amount of fuel ( the propane) you need less diesel to accomplish the same work as before.

 

[RustyJC]

He did not change the thermal efficiency of the internal combustion engine.

If he's claiming that total fuel consumption (diesel + propane) went from 20 to 30 MPG doing the same work and all else being equal, the only way to do that is to make the engine more efficient, which means the engine's thermal efficiency (work out / energy in) has to change. To be absolutely accurate, the fuel consumption comparison needs to be in terms of total BTU input (diesel + propane) divided by brake horsepower-hours output to give a brake specific fuel consumption measured in BTU/BHP-hr. MPG is pretty meaningless when the BTU content of the fuels varies dramatically.



The company where I've worked for 32+ years, most of those in technical management, has manufactured large industrial engines since the 1800s. Our products include diesel, dual fuel and spark gas (gaseous fuels such as methane, etc. ) engines. This company holds numerous patents on engine design technology and has run more engine-hours in the R&D lab than I could imagine. If we could increase the thermal efficiency of our dual-fuel engines by 50% simply by varying the mix between the diesel and gaseous fuel (which we can easily do), don't you think we would have done so?



Rusty

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

If he's claiming that total fuel consumption (diesel + propane) went from 20 to 30 MPG doing the same work and all else being equal, the only way to do that is to make the engine more efficient, which means the engine's thermal efficiency (work out / energy in) has to change. To be absolutely accurate, the fuel consumption comparison needs to be in terms of total BTU input (diesel + propane) divided by brake horsepower-hours output to give a brake specific fuel consumption measured in BTU/BHP-hr. MPG is pretty meaningless when the BTU content of the fuels varies dramatically.



The company where I've worked for 32+ years, most of those in technical

management, has manufactured large industrial engines since the 1800s. Our products include diesel, dual fuel and spark gas (gaseous fuels such as methane, etc. ) engines. This company holds numerous patents on engine design technology and has run more engine-hours in the R&D lab than I could imagine. If we could increase the thermal efficiency of our dual-fuel engines by 50% simply by varying the mix between the diesel and gaseous fuel (which we can easily do), don't you think we would have done so?



Rusty

If Rusty can't do it, Jim must be lieing



I don't care what your company does. I know that Jim gets the best mileage I've ever heard of from a 5. 9 diesel. I also see the industrial controls hanging under the dash.



He has a PHD from M. I. T. and installs/builds CNC machinery. he's a penny pinching tinkerer that can make about anything. He has no reason to lie. We've been friends for years.