$5.15 New York, anyone else seen $5+ a gallon

[HBarlow]

Coalsmoke,



No individual, no company, no industry, and no nation can price their goods or services "based on a falsely created inflated energy market" unless they have the power to close their borders and prohibit all trade outside of their market. The reason: Free trade.



If the Canadian oil industry overprices it's products, at some price level free Canadian citizens will either cross the borders to buy fuel or they will relocate to the US or other countries.



Regardless how much and how long some of you guys try to persuade yourself and others that conspiratorial companies and individuals are creating false market prices it won't be true, won't become true, and will not hold up to informed analysis and discussion.



Free and informed individuals act in their own best interest. It is human nature. If every house on my block is listed for sale and my house, similar to all the others, is priced $30,000 higher than the others, my house will sit unsold indefinitely. I cannot falsely set the price of my house higher than the market. Informed buyers, acting in their own best interests, will drive by my house and buy the others. That is one effect of supply and demand.



Supply and demand theory is not magic, not mysterious, and not conspiratorial. It simply explains human behavior. It IS the reason for the price of crude oil, gasoline, and diesel fuel.

 

[RGardner]

Harvey, have you had any trouble buying diesel? You can but 20, 200, 2000, 20,000 gal at the drop of the hat! If it truely were a supply and demand situation you could not.

 

[HBarlow]

No, not true. Every product or service sold is considered a "market. " Crude oil is one market and the price of crude oil is set by high world demand. The participants or buyers of crude oil are primarily the industrialized nations of the world.



Gasoline and diesel fuel are each products of the US motor fuels market. That market is essentially but not completely isolated from the market for gas and diesel in other countries around the world although China or India could buy gas or diesel in the US market and we could buy gas or diesel produced in China. That would not normally occur due to the transportation costs involved.



A good or service does not have to be unavailable to cause the price to rise. A high demand for a good or service that is available in limited supplies causes the same reaction.



Let me illustrate with a short story. Let's say that in some small town in American a group of investors and a couple of engineers decide to build a new factory to produce some new product. They decide to locate the plant in this town because the raw materials and components for their new product are available nearby as are transportation and utilities. So they buy the land, contract for their 1,000,000 s. f. new building to be built, and begin advertising in all the big newspapers in that state and nearby states to hire 10,000 new employees.



As the contractor's construction crews show up to begin building the building they discover there are only about 20 homes for sale in that town to house hundreds of new contractors and then thousands of new employees of the new company.



Ordinary Americans instinctively know that the prices of the 20 homes offered for sale will immediatly jump up in price. Sellers will immediately recognize that they have a limited supply of homes available with increased demand and will refuse to negotiate their prices down, may even raise their prices. Many owners who had been thinking about buying or building a new home will recognize the increased demand for housing and decide to put their homes up for sale at increased prices because they know the willing buyers who need homes will pay their prices. Taking the example a little farther, hundreds of acres of idle land in the area will immediately increase rapidly in value as the demand for new homes to house the workers is recognized and new subdivisions will be built.



This story illustrates how the crude oil and, separately but similarly, the motor fuels markets work. Supply and demand simply explains human behavior operating in a free society and free market.



It is important to keep one factor in mind to understand pricing of motor fuels. The price of gasoline or diesel fuel has a floor set by the price of crude oil because gas and diesel are produced from crude oil and only from crude oil. So the price of gas and diesel can never go below the cost of the crude oil they are made from. As the oil company execs testified recently on capital hill, almost all the profit has been squeezed from their products, gas and diesel, due to the extraordinary cost of crude.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I've carefully avoided threads and exchanges involving Harvey, because of his past tendency to quickly turn to demeaning and abusive personal references and attack as a basic "debating tool" - so I'll make only this single post here, than leave this thread.



The nifty example of "supply and demand" Harvey presents, overlooks one glaring point - one that is quite evident in today's crude oil situation - so I'll present my own dandy little illustration:



A drug chemist stumbles upon a new substance, which after substantial testing, displays undeniable ability to absolutely cure every major illness known to man. The various raw materials are cheap and plentiful, and the finished drug relatively easy and inexpensive to produce.



The chemist however, needs financial backing to establish volume production, and to purchase the volume of raw materials needed to set up manufacturing. He begins a search for investors for his new miracle drug.



There quickly appears a large group of intelligent investors, who fully grasp the importance of the new drug, and the landslide of demand it will create in those dying from the various illnesses it will cure. They quickly arrange financing with the chemist - with the understanding that THEY will buy virtually ALL the drug he will produce, and then will also fully take control of the packaging and distribution of the finished product - all the chemist needs do, is sit back and count his money.



To fully insure their "investment", the financial group also quickly buys up all known sources of raw materials for the drug. After all this is accomplished, the drug is advertised, and marketed - and demand escalates at an astronomical pace - as does the price!



SO, the drug, with all the promise and capability, and with a nearly limitless demand, quickly outpaces the ability of many to purchase it - so many continue to die of their various illnesses - not because of the LACK of existence of a cheap and easily produced cure, but because the market, including raw materials, is controlled and manipulated by individuals more interested in profit than humanity.



SO, we are left with either of 2 basic realities - one, and the one those like Harvey enthusiastically support, embraces the idea that those described above have the total RIGHT, as guaranteed by our Constitution, to vigorously pursue their intended activities of PROFIT, regardless of, and FREE OF any regard for the health or well being of the many unable to pay the artificially inflated price for what THEY must have for their survival.



The remaining reality, is that RIGHTS, without at least minimal conscience and control, is merely another form of legal robbery and extortion.



To further expand on this, using Harvey's earlier real estate example, there may be nothing wrong with individual property owners enjoying the INDIVIDUAL rise in property values with an incoming new factory - but Harvey conveniently overlooks the very real likelihood of real estate INVESTORS, middle-men only interested in PROFIT, but with NO ties to the community, to swarm into the area as THEY recognize the potential for profit, and quickly buy up all available land - then set their OWN artificially inflated prices to newcomers to the affected area - and if they can't, or won't pay, TOUGH!



ALL perfectly legal - but is it morally right - or is "morality" an issue totally foreign to our Constitution and Bill of Rights?

 

[HBarlow]

Gary's example of the pharmaceutical industry sounds very persuasive to a man who hates the free market and would apparently have the government control all industry and business to ensure "fairness" which was the utopian dream of the former Soviet Union, but the reality of development of new drugs is actually very different than Gary's example.



In reality, the drug chemist in Gary's example works for years, sometimes decades, searching for new drugs capable of providing cures. During those years or decades of research and experimentation someone must pay this drug chemist a high salary and must provide the laboratory and highly technical and expensive laboratory equipment where the drug chemist performs his work. I have very limited knowledge of the industry so can't even begin to identify all the extremely high costs involved in researching, traveling around the globe in search of plants, herbs, and other ingredients. In short, before the new miracle cure has been created millions of dollars have been spent.



Then there would be years or another decade of testing on animals and ultimately, on volunteer humans in very tightly controlled situations with exhaustive gathering and auditing of results. More millions.



Then, once the drug is deemed ready for market and approved by the FDA the product must be mass marketed and mass produced and both information and the new drug must be placed in the hands of doctors and they must be persuaded to prescribe the new drug. More millions are spent.



Once the drug is actually being prescribed and administered and millions of Americans are then enjoying (hopefully) the cure provided by the new drug the drug companies who have already spent hundreds of millions of dollars must now prepare for the onslaught of lawsuits brought in state and federal courts by the hordes of (democrat) trial lawyers like one of our recent failed presidential candidates anxious to persuade a stupid-anti business jury to award the plaintiff who may have died of natural causes or the lifelong effects of bad diet and bad lifestyle hundreds of millions of dollars out of the profits of drug company who provided the drug.



The example above is a bit shallow. A drug company has an absolute right to earn a fair profit. A drug company is not a social services arm of the government and has no obligation to citizens to provide free services.



When I read anti-business rants like the previous I wonder why citizens who think like that don't simply move to Russia, Cuba, or China where the government will ensure fairness.

 

[Coalsmoke]

Coalsmoke,



No individual, no company, no industry, and no nation can price their goods or services "based on a falsely created inflated energy market" unless they have the power to close their borders and prohibit all trade outside of their market. The reason: Free trade.



If the Canadian oil industry overprices it's products, at some price level free Canadian citizens will either cross the borders to buy fuel or they will relocate to the US or other countries.



Regardless how much and how long some of you guys try to persuade yourself and others that conspiratorial companies and individuals are creating false market prices it won't be true, won't become true, and will not hold up to informed analysis and discussion.



Free and informed individuals act in their own best interest. It is human nature. If every house on my block is listed for sale and my house, similar to all the others, is priced $30,000 higher than the others, my house will sit unsold indefinitely. I cannot falsely set the price of my house higher than the market. Informed buyers, acting in their own best interests, will drive by my house and buy the others. That is one effect of supply and demand.



Supply and demand theory is not magic, not mysterious, and not conspiratorial. It simply explains human behavior. It IS the reason for the price of crude oil, gasoline, and diesel fuel.

Sorry, but that simply does not hold true in a multi-tiered monopolized market like that of oil. I think perhaps people make the mistake of thinking that the oil market is no different than the orange peeler market, for example, and as a result come to the same conclusions you did, which on the surface seem logical and valid. There is not, at the moment, a current open-market competition in our oil market.

 

[HBarlow]

"To further expand on this, using Harvey's earlier real estate example, there may be nothing wrong with individual property owners enjoying the INDIVIDUAL rise in property values with an incoming new factory - but Harvey conveniently overlooks the very real likelihood of real estate INVESTORS, middle-men only interested in PROFIT, but with NO ties to the community, to swarm into the area as THEY recognize the potential for profit, and quickly buy up all available land - then set their OWN artificially inflated prices to newcomers to the affected area - and if they can't, or won't pay, TOUGH!"





If everyone sat around with an entitlement mentality like some and watched the new company move to town, nothing would happen. Homes don't grow out of plowed fields while the lame and lazy sit around and complain.



Someone with ambition, ingenuity, and investment capital must buy up the land, combine it into sufficiently large parcels to create the subdivisions, take care of all the deed and other legal work required, obtain all the state and local permits, have all the utility services including sewer services extended to the new parcel and put in the ground, pave the roads, grade the lots, provide curbs and gutters, market the lots, arrange with the city and builders to build houses of certain sizes and features, and possibly build the houses also. All of this takes considerable knowledge, effort, capital, and risk. Each of those "commodities" has value that can be calculated in dollars.



It would have been done by government with incredibly ugly and wasteful results in a socialist utopia like the former USSR then the new employees could put their name on a list and wait for ten years for a house to be assigned, like in the USSR.



In America, the best and the brightest see the opportunities and relying on the freedom created by our Constitution, the free market provides beautiful and affordable new housing and "greedy" banks make the mortgage loans so that all the new employees have the housing they want and need.



Anyone who has even a clue of economics understands that the market sets the prices of raw land, improved lots, and finished homes. A stupid developer could possibly set an artificially inflated high price on his land, lot, or home, I suppose. But nobody would buy them if he did. He would quickly be gone.



In fact, developers understand economics, that is why they are successful.



Anyone can sit around criticising those who get out and achieve results and get rich, it is easy and requires no education, skill, or understanding of the challenges.



Sadly, some folks are just not well suited to live in a democracy with personal and economic freedom. Some need a "benevalent" big government to provide for them. Some are very resentful of those who are ambitious and successful. It is a shame because anyone can be successful, even wealthy in America.

 

[HBarlow]

Sorry, but that simply does not hold true in a multi-tiered monopolized market like that of oil. I think perhaps people make the mistake of thinking that the oil market is no different than the orange peeler market, for example, and as a result come to the same conclusions you did, which on the surface seem logical and valid. There is not, at the moment, a current open-market competition in our oil market.

You are mistaken but entitled to your belief. Many countries around the globe produce oil. Crude oil buyers can buy from any of them as well as other sources. The price is set by demand. Years back, before the demand created by China, India, and other developing nations, OPEC used to meet periodically to agree on production levels in order to control pricing of their crude.



If the US Congress would lift the restrictions on exploration and production on our own lands the message alone which would warn producing nations that the US was going to begin shifting its purchases to its own supples would shock the market and bring prices down. When actual production began, if it happened, world oil prices would decline further.

 

[Coalsmoke]

You are mistaken but entitled to your belief. Many countries around the globe produce oil. Crude oil buyers can buy from any of them as well as other sources. The price is set by demand. Years back, before the demand created by China, India, and other developing nations, OPEC used to meet periodically to agree on production levels in order to control pricing of their crude.



If the US Congress would lift the restrictions on exploration and production on our own lands the message alone which would warn producing nations that the US was going to begin shifting its purchases to its own supples would shock the market and bring prices down. When actual production began, if it happened, world oil prices would decline further.

And this is exactly what we are supposed to believe, we are supposed to be good complacent citizens who don't ask questions and just keep paying. I'm not going to get into a slapping fest here, that won't do much good in the larger scheme of things, and I see I'm not the only one probably feeling this way. Have a good weekend

 

[HBarlow]

And this is exactly what we are supposed to believe, we are supposed to be good complacent citizens who don't ask questions and just keep paying. I'm not going to get into a slapping fest here, that won't do much good in the larger scheme of things, and I see I'm not the only one probably feeling this way. Have a good weekend

You may be but I am not "a good complacent citizen who doesn't ask questions. " I know that the cause of high prices is primarily the high price of crude oil which is set in the world market.



I freely express my dissatisfaction with the actions of the US Congress who prevent the US oil industry from cutting themselves and ourselves loose from OPEC and also express my point of view at the ballot box. My anger is directed at the US Congress which stands between me and reasonably priced diesel fuel and gasoline, not at the oil companies who provide the diesel fuel and gasoline for me. Like you and me, the oil companies are entitled to make a fair profit. I bear them no ill will.



And I wish you a good remainder of the weekend also.

 

[Austin Diesel]

Anyone drive an 08 6. 7 over in mexico it would seem that they sell their also seeing they are built in Saltillo MX, Wondering if any issues would occur by running low sulphur , instead of ultra low sulphur diesel and would it cause warranty issues and or dpf contamination due to the higher sulphur content . Any know if 2008 6. 7 cummins rams sold in mexico have different emission packages?

 

[Austin Diesel]

08 6.7 Mexican Market 2500's

Anyone drive an 08 6. 7 over in mexico it would seem that they sell there also seeing they are built in Saltillo MX, Wondering if any issues would occur by running low sulphur , instead of ultra low sulphur diesel and would it cause warranty issues and or dpf contamination due to the higher sulphur content . Any one know if 2008 6. 7 cummins rams sold in mexico have different emission packages?



Diesel selling for 2. 10 a gallon in Mexico wow what a savings but not worth ruining my warranty or engine emission equipment on my new truck yet.

 

[HBarlow]

I don't know if any 6. 7s are sold into MX or not. If they are the engines probably don't have US emissions equipment on them.



I would absolutely not knowingly or intentionally burn LSD diesel in mine or use CI oil. According to our owner's manuals and word from Cummins reps, it will cause problems with the DPF.

 

[C. Harlan]

I saw it for $5. 63/ Gallon somewhere between Las Vegas & Reno on Sunday. . Enough to make you keel over in pain!



We stopped outside of Albuquerque and filled up with LOW sulfur Diesel, and it cut me off at $990. 00... Not even full to the top! BTW, I was in the Pete, not Black Betty or Mighty Whitey...



-Chris-



-Chris-

 

[Austin Diesel]

yup our heavy hauler freightliners have 600 hp detroits and our cards only go to 1000. 00 at 6 miles per gallon we must get our limits bumped up to actually fillup .



Anyway with all this heavy verbage listed above why is diesel in mexico only 2. 54 a gallon are there fuels subsidized ?



wih all this global marketing and pricing of oil futures, traders are killling the american economy at the opportunity to make a buck because of a lack of intelligent controls







We give Mexico them but can only bring back 100 gallons of low sulphur. And only if it is connected to our main tank according to customs and it wont work in my 08 6. 7 which truely sucks without killing my emissions equipment.



I dont think that ulsd diesel is available at their pumps yet . we could just import their diesel who hoo

 

[Austin Diesel]

they are saying if they started drilling tomorrow which wont happen it will still take 5 years or more for the supply to reach the markets and that wont increase our refining capacity overnight either



we will still pay the price at the pump we still have no choice

 

[HBarlow]

Well a customer of mine who has a doctorate in math (teaches college and does research) says the oil companies(and probably opec) have been working hard to increase prices for years.

I hope you don't sell anything to your customer on credit. Math whiz, or not, he's a fool. Has he heard of China or India?

 

[Wayne M.]

I just paid $4. 61 on the New Jersey turnpike, and for LSD. The image is of what I consider the most expensive station around here.