6.0 Powerstroke vs. 5.9 Cummins

[agoldbach]

Thanks

I just wanted to thank you all for your input. It has been an enlightening experience. I am still considering a Superduty with the 6. 0 and TorqShift, however it better be pretty damn impressive if it will sway me from a CTD. I was basically looking for a little reassurance if I am going to spend that kind of money on a diesel pickup and you have all made me feel pretty confident about my choice. Thanks again for all of your input!

Adam

 

[daveshoe]

Tried to compare-- couldn't

I wanted to compare a new duramax to the Cummins head to head . I live in southwest Ohio and my previous truck is a Chevy. I felt that I had made a mistake in ordering the Chevy because the gearing in the 5 speed was too tall for a work truck. I have had the truck for ten years and it has given me good service , BUT as per my previous experience I was determined to actually drive a Duramax with a MANUAL transmission.

I looked and looked and tried to have a dealer locate one for me to drive. None were available in Ohio and the closest out of state truck was five hours away.

I also will point out that I use a GM credit card for business use and I could have gotten a $4k additional discount after any dealer discounts.

Dont you think that GM could have a manual trans in at least each state no more than a two or three hour drive away from a prospective customer ? I wont criticize others for buying any truck they choose, but for my needs , GM didn't even offer a choice.

I probably would have picked Dodge anyway I'm sure glad I did.

 

[bkaiser]

Several years ago I test drove a Ford F350 CC Powerstroke. Nice truck, but a bit of steering wander. If DC had dropped the CTD, I'd probably buy the Ford. For me, the Dodge has the advantages of being 9" shorter, with a foot shorter wheelbase than the Ford and the CTD should get better mileage in my use. There is one thing I would love to take from the Ford and put in the Dodge - the captain's chairs in the Ford fit me like a glove! I reviewed the Chevy/GMC options and wouldn't consider looking at them because I would need to buy several thousand $ worth of stuff I didn't want to get a few hundred $ worth of things I did. I think all three trucks are competent, they all just appeal to different tastes. Isn't having choices like this what makes this country great?!?!

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

What is the "superiority" of the Ford Super Duty as some have expressed above? I figured the Dodge HO was pretty much the DC version of "super duty" as far as drivetrain and such is concerned... My RVing bud has a '99 PS Super Duty - here's a picture of it:



#ad




This was taken a couple of months ago during an RVing trip we both took up along the Oregon coast - where his auto transmission failed at 60,000 miles... My "inferior" Dodge HO towed his trailer on down to Florence Oregon where we waited for his new replacement transmission to be installed...



I think the Fords are good trucks - but sure don't see any noticeable difference or advantage in fit, finish or overall quality between them and my '02 Dodge 2500...

 

[amsoilman]

I have done some work on both the Dodge CTD and the Ford PS. I will gladly work on the Dodge CTD anytime compared to the Ford PS! Try replacing an injector or a glow plug on a Ford PS!

I'll take the CTD any day. And as far as the truck itself, The Dodge trucks I've owned over the last 40 years have all been very long lasting, and I've owned 4 of them in that time frame.



Wayne

amsolman

 

[pkennedy]

Again fellows we have a gentleman who needs facts to base his decisions on and unfortunately personal preferance simply houses the shell. As previously stated the big 6 is the better choice based on pulling power ie; the Cummins retains full manifold pressure way below the PS or DM. Also go to a truck stop and flip the hood on a big truck and see the reality of I-6 glory 98% majority (Cat 600HP 2050 ft pds Torque stock I-6). Back a few years Cat put 3408 V8's in Class 8 trucks, awsome power (500HP 1800 ft pds Tor) but fuel consumption was too high, cooling was a problem and cost to repair combined with weight made them impractable. Again go back to research mode and you will see that Dodge I-6's have less failures per unit built than PS or DM with less combined chassis problems, this why I own a B5. 9 and if had a choice to go to a larger chassis my preference would be a 3126 Cat with a Allison spd overdrive auto $$$$$$$$$ cubic dollars acomplishes any thing

 

[Big_Daddy_T]

I wrote d/c and told them they should install the 4 banger cummins in the dakota. Id love to have one.

The new psd has alot of power. I am impressed. I myself have always opted for I-6s for practicality. I love em. Its just personal preference whatever you like will work quite well for you Im sure. I also am partial to a solid front axle. Not a difficult decision.

Sidenote: I ran into a guy a few days ago. I started a conversation because he had a very purdy ford ps. I suggest uprating and told him where to go. I was in my car so he didnt know what I drove. He asked me and I told him. He laughed at me and said why in the hell would I want to drive a two stroke. I asked him who gave him this pearl and he said the dealer told him that. I didnt get angry because it was so stupid. I then suggested that he do a little research before sharing that one with anyone else. I also didnt tell him what an uprated cummins was capable of. I didnt buy my diesel to be the fastest. Its just my favorite of the big 3.

 

[Badunit]

It is very difficult to give anything but an opinion when the cold hard facts are unknown. Even when they are known, opinion comes into play (an example is all the discussion about noise level from earlier threads: some like it loud, some like it quiet, which is "better"?)



I'd like to compare the power and torque curves of the Cummins to the others but that information doesn't seem to be readily available. The Diesel Dynamics site has curves for the Cummins but these curves don't match up with the Hp and Torque specs Dodge is handing out. It's a pretty big difference on the low end of the torque curve (and therefore on the Hp curve as well) so which should I believe? I haven't seen a Curve made by Dodge or Cummins, just the max numbers. Are there any curves for the PSD and Duramax? The maximum Hp and Torque specs that everyone hands out, are they accurate or are they under some idealized conditions that we'll never know or experience?



I'd like to compare the failure rates as well. Anyone have unbiased information, not just anecdotal evidence (i. e. , not of the ilk "the shop down the street repairs more PSD than Cummins engines so the PSD must fail more"). Has anyone done a true statistical analysis with a large sample size so we can get a better handle on the facts? Can you point us toward the source ofthis information so we can see it for ourselves?



If you read the Dodge literature, the Cummins is definitely the way to go. Read the Ford stuff and the PSD has it hands down. Same with Chevy and the Duramax. Marketing is an art form, not an expression of truth.



So we're really stuck with giving opinions from what I can tell. Of course, that is just my opinion.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Having seen threads like this before, I can tell you with certainty, OPINION is ALL you'll get on this subject - and, this being a DODGE group, guess WHICH brand those opinions will favor...



Let's face it, ALL the "big 3" have GREAT products - and final choice - OR avoidance, primarily will revolve around issues of specific interest to individual buyers - aluminum heads, a "real" crew cab - solid front axles, etc. , etc.



The issue of engine reliability has pretty well become a moot point - what REAL difference is there in engines when even the POOREST of them in terms of lifespan, will easily last FAR beyond the lifespan of the owner, or the actual time a younger owner is REALLY likely to keep it before trading for something newer - I owned my '91 - supposedly my "last truck" for 12 years and 120,000 miles, it would have lasted MANY more miles, and probably outlive ME (I'm 66) - but the lure and added attractions of the '02 quad cab got to me...



SO, the "longevity" and "durability" of the '91 wasn't actually a valid factor in my case, was it!



While the inline sixes are fabulous in towing in the grades, the V8's are a blast in the sort of driving MOST of us do most often - empty around town and out on the freeways - hard to beat the rapid acceleration and responsiveness of a powerful V8, whether it's a gasser or a diesel - but if hard work ALONE - combined with excellent economy in working situations, is of primary interest to you, the inline six is hard to beat for economical operation...



Some diehard DC owners will jump in and point out the ability to install aftermarket items to improve the power of the Cummins *as *I* have done!) - but let's be honest and reasonably impartial guys, the Ford and GM guys have the SAME ability and aftermarket stuff WE do - so no real advantage there, either!



Current and future EPA dicatates as to diesel engine operation has pretty well mandated that they ALL must now be considered high-RPM engines - in many ways potentially negating the economy and long life of former diesels - time will tell, but SOME of us hurried to buy the "old style" diesels specifically to avoid the possibility of degraded economy and reliability - like I said, time will tell...



Fact is, a buyer isn't likely to go wrong with ANY of the big 3 - *I* could quite happily own any of them, tho' if I was forced to choose today, from any of the '03's, I'd probably take a Ford...



But for now, I *love* my new Dodge!



Hows THAT for impartial honesty?



(ducking and running... )

 

[David Muench]

I tell ya, with the problems I am having with my 2003 order. . If I could get a Ford with the cummins in it, I'd be in a F-350 tomorrow.

 

[DHawthorne]

The CTD is the best choice for the application in light trucks in my opinion. HOWEVER, there are a couple engines that if available in a light truck, would change some peoples minds. If a CAT could be had? If a International DT444 in line 6 (Torque up the butt)

and a real Detroit Diesel instead of the Maxi Pad.



On the Ford 6. 0. Remember a few years ago when the powerstroke was in my opinion again, the truck to have for towing. It was at Max torque at 2200 rpm. With a 4:10 rear 2200

is just under 70 mph. That was a towing fool. With the new 6. 0 and its torque way up there, maybe they know what there doing.

The transmission will really determine how the load gets moving with various ratios until the torque comes on.



Max torque up top converts to fuel mileage as well, again in my opinion.



Dave

 

[bmaxey]

Originally posted by agoldbach

Let me just start by saying that the purpose of this post isn't to instigate an arguement. I want to get input from those of you who love all diesels and who are man enough to give credit where it is due. I took a test drive in the new Powerstroke this past weekend and I think that it leaves the new Cummins in the dust. The power and response was absolutly awesome! I think the new Cummins is absolutely awesome too, but it was hard compare since the Ford had the new TorqShift 5-speed auto. The Dodge had the HD 6 speed. Personally, I think the Ford Superduty will always be a better truck than the Dodges (powerplant excluded of course!). When it comes to the Engine, it will be really hard to choose between the two this fall when I order my 2004. Lastly, let me offer this pre-emptive retort to those of you who will immediatly spew that old line about an inline configuration being better than the V configuration. True, it has less moving parts, but that doesn't mean it's better. A friend of mine told me an interesting story of when he worked for Cummins Engine at their Midrange Engine Plant south of Columbus, OH. He told me that they were developing a V-6 diesel for use in the Durango and Grand Cherokee, before DC scrapped the program. I am appealing to those who are open minded and who want to offer intellegen insight into my query, not get into a peeing contest. I just want to offer that if I didn't think that Cummins engines kick butt, I wouldn't even have bothered to join this site. I really look forward to hearing what you guys have to say!

I am new to the Diesel ownership but you may find that the slower turning engine (slower piston speeds) travel much shorter distances over the 100 or 200 + thousand miles in its life and hence last longer from less wear on its internal parts, pistions, ring etc. Just someting to think about.

 

[Wiredawg]

Dodge/Cummins all the Way

Fellow Rammers:



I've driven a Chevy 3500 DRW Duramax/Allison and a Ford F-350 7. 3 L Auto and 6 spd. They were quiet and fast, but I didn't feel the torque where I know I need it to pull my 16K lb 5th wheel. I like the Dodge/Cummins better, as apparent by me buying a new 02 3500 in Aug 02.



FYI: I priced out an F-450 6 spd 4X4 crewcab Lariat for $38K. This truck had 17K lb trailer towing, GCVWR of 26K Lb, 19. 2 tires, big brakes,etc...



Still went with the Dodge/Cummins team.



Everyone has their own view of things; here's mine: I want something that is easy to work on, inexpensive to upgrade, lasts a long time and looks good. I'm buying my wife an 03 3500 SRW QC, LB 4X4 w/ 48RE.



Result=Diehard Dodge/Cummins Fan



Wiredawg

 

[dpetre]

Dodge vs Ford

I have own ford diesels since 1992 and in April I switched to the Dodge with the cummins diesels. So far the Dodge has 20000 miles on it and is the best truck that I have owned so far. The Fords that I owed where just to much maintenance and always breaking down. You need a good dealer and a tow truck to own one. The local ford dealer in my area really gives poor service. My wife wants her own new dodge but see does not get one until they put an auto in it that will handle the 305 hp.

 

[Big_Daddy_T]

Just for kicks let me add that these engines have seen 1 million miles. Some over 1. 2. I am a diehard I6 owner so I didnt even consider a ps even though my pops has owned two. Both worked well but cost him to maintain. Including 3500 worth of top end work at 115k . He was disapointed. I dont know which lasts longer statistically because the cummins hasnt had enough failures since there release in 88 to make a statistical analysis. At least thats what I read from cummins. Marketing or not I couldnt tell yah. Has a ps made 1 Million miles? I dont know. Show me, make me a believer. Ps claims that cummins uses a different failure rate analysis so their numbers are skewed. According to cummins the 5. 9 should get to 450k before 50% of engines get excessive blowby and needs a rebuild. The other 50% are fine. Ps claimed 250k or 80% are fine. Medium or Light duty? its your choice.

 

[DiTrani]

To be clear about something, an inline engine doesn't just simply produce more torque than a V engine. The reason the I6 has lots of torque compared to similarly displacing V8 diesels is because of the necessary long stroke to achieve that displacement with 2 fewer cylinders. Plus the ISB is a pretty long stroke engine in general. Big pistons and long stroke = low-end torque, regardless of design. You could build a V6 with the same displacement and bore/stroke as the ISB and it would also be a torque monster. Not knocking the I6, wonderful in it's relative simplicity, so long as you don't have size constraints.

 

[boonsur]

It's been said before, but.....

There are a many of other good reasons why I-6 is better.



Better bearing area: 7 bearings for 6 cylinders, vs. 5 brgs. for 8 cylinders.



Drastically bigger component size (bearings, cam/crank, connecting rods, castings, etc. ) because space allows.



Loads/forces all act "inline" with so components can be made more effective for single directional loads.



Also, how about the old argument about using aluminum components (heads) in a diesel (high heat) application vs the cummins cast iron.

 

[b.ferrara]

ctd or psd

I currently own 5 diesels, of course the 2 farm tractors and the

mercedes benz don't count for this discussion, but the other 3 do.

1984 suburban 6. 2 diesel: other than 19 mpg not worth anything.

2000 e350 club wagon super duty (my wifes).

1990 w250 my truck.

wifes van ok but believe me when it comes to the powertrain,

no comparison. Don't get me wrong, towing a 30' jayco it goes

ok, and gets about 14mpg at 70 mph.

But my dodge is just all around better. There really is no comparison.

It's like comparing a Mack r-model to a peterbilt.

Best of luck with your decision. :-{}

 

[krabman]

You read quite a bit of talk about getting a Cat in a light truck and I thought I would throw a few thoughts in here on that. Being an engineer on various boats up in Ak I have plenty of hours with Cats. Were talking 3304s,3306s,3406s, 3408s,355s,398s, 399s,3512,s and 3516s to the tune of over 100,000 hours between the batch. I like Cats but no more so than several other brands. Cats are popular because they are reliable, parts are relatively inexpensive and more readily available, and NC is normally not to far away when it comes to getting a mechanic on the boat. The last 2 points are just as important in a commercial environment as the first point. It seems to me that there is viewpoint that Cats are uber engines and that just isnt true. I have used many other power choices that were equally capable and had better uptime and lower overall operating costs. Im not saying Cats are bad, Im saying they are not the ultimate engine some people seem to think they are.

 

[timjones]

If you really need to know about the reilablity of the 6. 0 powerstroke just follow this link. It seems to the factory employees thoughts on the matter.



http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubb...=916079&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1