600 got beaten up pretty bad

[Camp]

I will be interested to see if the new turbo helps. I got spanked on Sunday headed east bound on Hwy. 70 climbing Eisenhower Pass by a bone stock '03 duramax, the one I have previously made comparisons too in other threads. We finally got them out together with comparable loads and I got smoked.

 

[Jeremiah]

Guaranteed cure

Hey, Camp, head over to ATS Diesel on Kipling and tell Clint your story about gettin' smoked. He's got a few guaranteed "cures" lying around the shop. Then the next time you see that feller with the Duro, challenge him again. Just don't tell 'im you got a little "help" under the hood :-laf

 

[Camp]

The funny thing is that I will be driving that Dmax tonight to So. Cal. We usually don't have them out together but, we are on a pro rock crawling team together and take turns pulling to events.

 

[Yo Hoot]

From a former Dmax owner... .



The Dmax/Allison does have more in the 2-3-4 gear. The shifts are crisper and hook up better. The Duramax itself runs smoother throughout it's usable range.



I think the Dodge auto hurts the Cummins in a side by side comparison. I can't get over the article written by TDR Technical Writer, Joe Donnelly



Read some of this hype... (understand this was a manual trans comparison which doesn't surprise me)



“The Dodge Ram dominates in every category,” said Darryl Jackson, Vice President, Dodge Marketing, Chrysler Group. “With the new Ram Heavy Duty Cummins ‘600,’ the Ram family of trucks now includes the strongest heavy-duty pickup available,"



"The Chevrolet Duramax is not for a truck enthusiast. Even in first gear, it was difficult to start the rig going uphill on the modest grade without stalling. Second gear starts were completely out of the question. Handling was definitely “on the edge” going through downhill curves, and the brakes were not even close to confidence-inspiring. The best I could get through the radar unit was 33 mph. The engine and drivetrain emitted a variety of unhappy noises, growls and whines, with lots of fan noise. As the radar showed, power was poor. The redline was about 3000 rpm, and you had to be near there to get any power. "



yo hoot says..... that's simply not true



"Once again, the Chevrolet was generic and did not inspire any confidence in the power, handling, or braking departments. It creaked and groaned in the side-flex curve, and made a lot of noise when the driver begged for power. Perhaps the low power was a blessing, because hitting the brake pedal seemed to be only a mild suggestion to the truck that it needed to slow down. Actually, my main concern was not whether the brakes worked—they did a fair job—but the pedal went almost to the floor even pushing on it at a stop. Using the clutch was not easy, because a large box is bolted to the floor just above and to the left of the clutch pedal. I hit it several times with my foot and was unable to depress the clutch pedal fully when that happened. The handling was rather sloppy and the suspension seemed soft, particularly with the weight in the bed. "



Now I'm sorry... . I have owned both and do not think this evaluation is fair. Anybody that puts stock for stock together... . automatic to automatic will find the Dmax walks away easily, handles well and is a great truck for what it was intended. My Dmax handled the road BETTER than my new Dodge. Not that my new truck is bad but the GMC was significantly tighter on turns. You can feel the straight axle of the Dodge. The GMC is more refined. The brakes were great. Still had the original ones on it when I traded it at 72,000 miles. Stopped the truck very fast. I actually feel almost no difference in braking between the GMC and the Dodge. Both have excellent braking and no difference in pedal height or sensitivity.



I commend TDR's issue 44 article on page 100 by Sam Memmolo of Two Guys Garage for letting Joe Donnelly know he was a bit out of line.



You will notice the Dodge automatic was left out almost entirely in the article (Joe Donnelly's). That's because he would have had to commend GM for BLOWING DODGE AWAY in the automatic category. So he left it out.



A taste of the real world.

 

[Buzzer]

Originally posted by Yo Hoot

From a former Dmax owner... .





[Now I'm sorry... . I have owned both and do not think this evaluation is fair. Anybody that puts stock for stock together... . automatic to automatic will find the Dmax walks away easily, handles well and is a great truck for what it was intended.

Well I guess we all have a different vision. I perferred the Dodge over the Chevy not only in looks but also because of the straight front axle and the durability of the Cummins having seen what my friends with th DMAXs have gone through with their trials and tribulations. I also would not say the DMAX would walk away. It is a higher reving engine and does have it pros over the Cummins just like the Cummins has pros over the DMAX just like any comparison would.



I'm curious when you say "..... is a great truck for what it was intended. " What does that mean?

 

[Yo Hoot]

Originally posted by Buzzer

Well I guess we all have a different vision. I perferred the Dodge over the Chevy not only in looks but also because of the straight front axle and the durability of the Cummins having seen what my friends with th DMAXs have gone through with their trials and tribulations. I also would not say the DMAX would walk away. It is a higher reving engine and does have it pros over the Cummins just like the Cummins has pros over the DMAX just like any comparison would.



I'm curious when you say "..... is a great truck for what it was intended. " What does that mean?

The straight axle in my opinion is a big plus. One of the reasons I got the Dodge. I used to argue about the SFA being old technology compared to GM IFS. I needed to own one (SFA). I like the way it can handle the larger tires without a wimper. My opinion on SFA has changed a bit.



I believe GM went after the over the road hauling crowd. Fifth wheelers, hot shotters, retired couples on a road trip with a camper, but left real commercial to Ford. I think the SuperDuty has both Dodge and GM whipped and if it wasn't for the failed 6. 0 PSD Ford would be handing both the platter. Sorry but Ford has the right idea as far as room, size and drivetrain is concerned. Dodge is nice but the quad cab is no comparison.



I agree with JD's article in the torque/longevity side of it. I just think the article showed some personal negativity towards GM. Notice he never mentioned the fuel economy. That no longer seems to be a Cummins standout.



Don't get me wrong here. I'm not on a GM bandwagon. Been there.



Lets get back to the topic at hand. The DMax walked away from the Dodge twice. Towing. I didn't post that but it shows you the real world.



And BTW I also went with Dodge on the back of the Cummins but I got a little surprise. Mileage isn't there unless I'm really light on the pedal. The Dmax got consistant 16+. It does look like the CUmmins will do a few mpg better on the highway, unloaded. They also surprised me with the permanently engaged front axle. Not sure that's such a great thing.



Overall the Dodge has been a real pleasure to own so far. I like the looks, the stance, the motor, the build quality and the overall driveability including turning radius which is much better that my CC SB Dmax. Sure makes a huge difference in the parking lots when I go out to get milk



My biggest complaint is the slushbox. It doesn't do the Cummins justice. You really don't feel the torque until she locks.

 

[John - K5AWO]

stick vs auto

I agree on the manuals vs the autos. I sold my 5 spd and went to an automatic because of my "everyday use" which is in Phoenix metro traffic.



Gonna tow heavy, stick with the sticks... pun intended



To be honest, I should be driving a rice burner and get the 35+ mpg, but at age 61... ...

I'm agonna go out with my first love smelling the diesel

and feeling those pistons going up and down. Oo. Oo. Oo. Oo. Oo. Oo. , all six of 'em.

 

[DGFoster]

I have to agree Hoot,the Dodge 48RE is not even close to the same league as the Allison or even the Torque Shift in the Fords,I hope the rumors are true about Dodge developing a new transmission.

But I just dont like GM trucks,so I will get Bill K to work some magic on my transmission

 

[RobbieH]

I've towed with both. The Chevy my dad has is the Duramax/Allison. Mine is the HO 555/6 Speed.



In a drag race, he will dust my ass. The Allison shifts far faster than I can.



In real world use, I like mine better.



And whoever said the DMax has to wind in 4th, well, I tow about 7,000 lbs and have towed across the Rockies twice round trip with no problems from it downshifting. I was very impressed how well the DMax/Allison worked.



But I like my Dodge better, even though most would not care for a stick.

 

[Jeremiah]

Originally posted by Camp

The funny thing is that I will be driving that Dmax tonight to So. Cal. We usually don't have them out together but, we are on a pro rock crawling team together and take turns pulling to events.

Aha! So you are an authority on both trucks, eh? What's your read? Not too often we get to hear from someone who drives both.

 

[Yo Hoot]

This is exactly the responses I would expect from those who have experiences with both. They aren't nearly as far apart as the article would have you believe.

 

[Camp]

I believe they are very close trucks. So far with my experience with the Dodge, (read 4500miles), the Dmax will pull the hills faster and get better fuel economy doing it. Don't take that the wrong way though. The Dodge feel like it has more power on the bottom end and I like driving more. The new Dodge has a better fit and finish inside than my Dmax did and I feel better than the '03 that I will be driving tonight. I would like to pull on one of our trips with a new Ford of comperable build. I really believe that these trucks all have there own advantages but, it really comes down to brand loyalty and what you are looking for.



By the way, the stereo in my new Dodge is 10000000 times better than the one in my Dmax. Chevy's upgraded stereo was a complete joke and the new infinity system rocks. I know, minor issue on the trucks but, just an example of a difference.

 

[Guest]

doesnt the 600 weigh noticably more than a DMAX?

 

[Yo Hoot]

My 2004 Dodge 4x4 QC SB shipped empty 1000lbs more than my new 2001 GMC DMax CC SB



Camp... exactly.

 

[Sherman]

Auto's

Originally posted by DGFoster

I have to agree Hoot,the Dodge 48RE is not even close to the same league as the Allison or even the Torque Shift in the Fords,I hope the rumors are true about Dodge developing a new transmission.

But I just dont like GM trucks,so I will get Bill K to work some magic on my transmission

I don't know why Dodge does not dig into the big bag of Mercedes auto tricks!!!!!!

 

[DPelletier]

Yo Hoot,

I agree that they aren't that far apart performance wise, probably to the point that comparing auto's gives the LLY/Ally the advantage or at least makes it close enough that all the little factors come into play (truck weight, slightly differing loads, etc. etc. ). don't forget the article was comparing the 520ft lb DM to the 600 and I'm sure the results of that are real. No comparison. Comparing new 6 spds the results would still be the same as the article since the DM LLY isn't available in the 6spd (guess the ZF can't take the heat!). I guess the real test now, would be to test the LLY/Allison combo against the 600/NV-5600 combo. I'd be willing to bet a case of beer that the Dodge would win such a contest, at least for now!



Dave

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"I don't know why Dodge does not dig into the big bag of Mercedes auto tricks!!!!!!"



I think most of the general public is absolutely clueless as to the time and effort needed to make significant changes to a product line, as well as the various government hoops they must jump thru to do so - the days when automakers could make essentially radical changes to their vehicles are LONG gone thanks to a seriously declining profit margin and the EPA and CAFE...



Something as seemingly simple as a transmission change probably requires re-certification by those governmental agencies, much testing along with necessary mods to fit the new platform, training of service personnel, new updated manuals, development and logistics of an added replacements parts system, etc. , etc...



And THAT'S just for a transmission!



Things aren't always as simple as they seem!



Then there are those who can't understand why DC doesn't simply create a whole new factory or assembly line to start building the full crew cab trucks...

 

[DGFoster]

Originally posted by Gary - KJ6Q

"I don't know why Dodge does not dig into the big bag of Mercedes auto tricks!!!!!!"



I think most of the general public is absolutely clueless as to the time and effort needed to make significant changes to a product line, as well as the various government hoops they must jump thru to do so - the days when automakers could make essentially radical changes to their vehicles are LONG gone thanks to a seriously declining profit margin and the EPA and CAFE...



Something as seemingly simple as a transmission change probably requires re-certification by those governmental agencies, much testing along with necessary mods to fit the new platform, training of service personnel, new updated manuals, development and logistics of an added replacements parts system, etc. , etc...



And THAT'S just for a transmission!



Things aren't always as simple as they seem!



Then there are those who can't understand why DC doesn't simply create a whole new factory or assembly line to start building the full crew cab trucks...

This may be true,but if DC wants to contend for its share of the pie they are going to have to do something,but on the other hand,I guess if people keep buying them with the trannys they have now,why change.

And the good part is a 7/70 power train protection and all the money saved by buying a Dodge,a few transmission mods does wonders

 

[mattymac]

Originally posted by DGFoster

This may be true,but if DC wants to contend for its share of the pie they are going to have to do something,but on the other hand,I guess if people keep buying them with the trannys they have now,why change.

And the good part is a 7/70 power train protection and all the money saved by buying a Dodge,a few transmission mods does wonders

I agree about just a few upgrades and all is much better in the allison and dodge trans. but what do you guys think about the cost and know how to build up a mercedes trans if it were to come to that? but could you boys imagine a rock solid built mercedes trans behind the all mighty cummins? That would be a truck to recon with.

 

[DGFoster]

Originally posted by mattymac

I agree about just a few upgrades and all is much better in the allison and dodge trans. but what do you guys think about the cost and know how to build up a mercedes trans if it were to come to that? but could you boys imagine a rock solid built mercedes trans behind the all mighty cummins? That would be a truck to recon with.

Mercedes transmission would be a great choice. .