6speed moan/growl low rpms

[DLeno]

with such a substantial difference between the approved lubricant and a good CI-4 synthetic crankcase oil, I just wonder...



I mean this is great anectotal evidence, yet it raises some questions:





0. why did you change it. what benefit were you targeting and were you succesful measuring the results.



1. after 200K miles, what was the condition of the yellow metal components and other wear indicators in the transmission. Without a teardown, any accelerated wear would probably go un-noticed, since 200K is still early in the life of the transmission.



2. did you do any oil analysis to determine if any accelerated wear occured



3. do you tow or have you bombed your truck



4. why did DC go to so much trouble to specify this particular oil; what enemy were they shooting at and what goal did they acheive.



5. 200K on one transmission without any operator perceived problem is not really enough evidence to suggest that another transmission would benefit from the change. For example, suppose the service life of the NV5600 is equivalent to the Cummins engine itself (350,000 miles). *IF* changing to Amsoil reduced field reliability by 30% across a large population of transmissions, this ("200K and no problem") data would not mathematically indicate such a shift. Thus, for the purpose of detecting a significant decrease in transmission reliability, I claim that this data makes us blind to that possibility.



This kind of thing really interests me. You have a very particular lubricant specified with unique properites optimized for certain results. Then someone comes along and says "well I put this other lube in mine, and went 2/3 as long as the engine's avaerage useful life without incident so it must be ok

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"did someone say that Amsoil would take on the liability for using their series 3000 Diesel engine oil in the NV5600?"



Sure they will - the same day they also assume liability for engine failures due to extended crankcase drain intervals beyond DC recommended mileage...



The word "never" comes to mind...

 

[yogibear]

0. I changed it at 20K, and didn't want to pay DC the high price for their lube.



1. I did not tear it down because it was working flawlessly.



2. I changed it again at 120K, the fluid looked fine, and the transmission was shifting fine, did not get it analized. I changed it again at 220K, because I sold it to a good friend, that was about 16 mo. ago, I talked to him last Sat. , and he said everything was fine!



3. I have transported RV's for nine yrs. , 30'to 45', as heavy as 23K+, my 00 dyno'd 401, my 03 is 310.



4. Who know's why DC does some of the things they do. Do you??



5. Its enough evidence for me, and I did not say there was any benefits, I just think it works as well as any other lube. I might be mistaken, but I think NV stated that the 5600 was made for 200K service. That was for normal service, I think my use was, is, above normal.



I'm not being sarcastic, what works for me, may not work for some of you. A person has to use what "they" think is best, and thats what I'm doing.



Larry

 

[DLeno]

larry thanks for the info. I'm not trying to be judgemental, only detailed. your experience is fascinating as way to save $$. What was your projected savings as a result of switching? you changed fluid twice, so what was the cost of materials difference?



it just dawned on me that the DC fluid is a no-maintenance never change-it specification. maybe thats why the fluid is so specific -- they have to warrant trannys for 100K with no fluid change. I certainly see your motivation and the rationale (though still unproven except anectotally) -- instead of a lifetime fluid, you want extended life without the cost of using the DC fluid. Perhaps the justification is that if you change the fluid, the requriements on the fluid are not as great.

 

[yogibear]

I don't know how much $$ I saved, the 5W30 cost me 5. 65 qt. I think DC says the diff. lube is a non maint. item also, but how many do you know of that don't change it?? I think Amsoil is rated right up there with Cummins! JMHO! Been using it since 1973 in everything from lawnmowers to 350hp N-14 Cummins powered 9680 Versatile tractor, and never any lube problems.

NO OIL WAR, PLEASE!!! I'm outa here!



Larry

 

[Blakers]

Not really related to our trucks, but interesting. I had my 88 F-150 with a very stupidly-geared aluminum Mazda 5-speed. The book called for ATF, but it leaked quite a bit. After getting tired of putting ATF in every month, I tried using different oils. Mostly I used 15W-40 engine oil, but I also used non-detergent Valvolene SAE 40. I even filled it up with bar and chain oil once in the summer. They all seemed to work fine, but it was an old warn out Ford. I wouldn't do that to my Ram though.

 

[jackcaptjr]

Have an 04 HO that rattles in any gear if it is lugged below 1500. The old 99 5spd never made a sound. Can live with it if it is part of the beast but sounds like clutch springs to me. Thought that was 03's only though????

 

[JRensel]

jackcaptjr,



I have the same rattle and have been all over Dodge about it and made several posts here and elsewhere in the past. The dealer promised that Dodge will have a brand new TSB in a few days plus a new clutch disk. This comes directly to my dealer from Dodge engineering in Auburn Hills.



This isn't normal, and dont just put up with it. Yes its a great big honkin transmission, but to those who havent heard the rattle, you dont know. Some dealers are too lazy to bother to call engineering, but hold their feet to the fire and make up promise to keep you posted on when the TSB comes out. And dont bother to call Dodge Star system, its a waste of time. I would hae thought they would have dealt with this after the 03 rattle TSB but somebody slipped up.



Jack R

 

[EMD-Run8]

I'll tell ya this. When I switched my '92 BMW R100GS over to Amsoil within a few miles I definitely could tell the difference. The cylinder head temps went down (trust me when I say you feel it across your feet and legs) and within 500 or so miles I noticed that most of the cylinder head blueing had gone away. In fact the carbs had to be readjusted as a result of the cooler engine temps. When I put it in the '97 Saturn we had, the engine idled about 2-300 rpm's higher until the computer readjusted itself after a minute or two. Having said that, I know it sounds strange adding a 5w-30 oil to the transmission but it sounds a little strange adding ATF to a manual transmission too doesn't it? Call Amsoil's tech line I'm sure they'll explain it to you. They would never have built up the customer base they have selling snake oil. I personally wouldn't use a gauze type air filter but that doesn't mean you should avoid one like the plague. I'm just more concerned about filtration than airflow so I'll go another route like a UNI type filter. Why do people get so riled whenever the name Amsoil comes up?

 

[DLeno]

I dont' think anyone is riled up; Indeed the virtues of Amsoil engine oil have been well chronicled for at least 30 years of my personal interest in the subject. Amsoil has never been snake oil in my book -- their marketing practices early on were, but the product itself in my opinion has always been solid.



The difference here is that we're talking about using a product outside its original intent, in a device who's manufacturer specifies quite a different lube formulation, the result of which is that there is total loss of warranty protection (from DC, NV, or Amsoil) in the even of unit failure.



For me personally, I have to be convinced on a technical level (even high level) as to the actual virtues before I take on warranty responsibility (no molecule diagrams, just good explanations of why such a different oil formulation works). I'm not a warranty or numbers worshiper. Indeed, anyone with a fueling box has already put the NV5600 warranty at risk because it's input torque rating is nebulous at best and probably understated. But I digress.



My point is that for me there is too much anectotal evidence and not enough technical information -- for me to make such a significant switch from one lubricant to another. From what I've read so far, you could make an argument to put Amsoil engine oil in the rear diff too. I want to know:



1. the difference between the Penzoil synchromesh lube and Amsoil engine oil. In particular, how Penzoil targets syncros for manual transmissions in a way that compells Amsoil not to claim parity with.



2. how those differences help acheive the goals of the manufacturer. for example, lifetime lub.



3. how important those differences are if the Amsoil lube is changed every 50K miles or so



One thing in particular that bothers me is that if Amsoil does not transmit mechanical energy in the same way, or indeed dampens gear lash more than the Penzoil, that suggests that viscosity or friction is different. And that raises wear questions.



The other area of particular interest for me is the ability to protect yellow metals from wear due to aggressive oil. Penzoil makes particular mention of this property, yet Amsoil does not.

 

[EMD-Run8]

Like I said------Call 'em and ask. # is 715-392-7101 tech line. I'm sure they could answer any question you have. They've staked their reputation on it by advising the use of 5w-30 HDD in the nv5600 so if they can't then shame on them. I doubt they will shame themselves. They haven't done it in 30 yrs so why start now?

 

[Scrappy]

does this sound like like an owl calling out?

because if it does, mine does it too. It will even do it on decel with the clutch disengaged and in gear. I would bet that it is normal operation.

 

[DLeno]

Originally posted by EMD-Run8

Like I said------Call 'em and ask. # is 715-392-7101 tech line. I'm sure they could answer any question you have. They've staked their reputation on it by advising the use of 5w-30 HDD in the nv5600 <comments about shame deleted>

boy I sure wish people would point to information instead of argument. so the story on Amsoil 5W-30 is this, according to Amsoil:



1. series 3000 5w-30 crosses directly to Mopar 4874464 in their application guide.



2. There is no issue with yellow metals because the Amsoil formula does not use sulfur compounds



3. GM part number 12345349 is a synchromesh manual transmission fluid but it too is 5w-30 motor oil

Originally posted by DLeno

did someone say that Amsoil would take on the liability for using their series 3000 Diesel engine oil in the NV5600? .

It appears that the answer to this question is YES. Amsoil series 3000 5w 30 meets Mopar MS-9224 and crosses to Mopar transmission fluid 4874464. That means Amsoil will warrant your NV5600 for any fluid related failure.



food for thought guys. The Mopar stuff appears to be just engine oil anyway, and it may be just marketing verbiage to say "this (Mopar) is the only recommended fluid... ". Its looking to me like the use of Amsoil in the transmission is much like putting an AFE filter in the air box -- if it meets the spec, they can't make the warranty depend on the use of their consumables.

 

[EMD-Run8]

Well there, we all have it now. The very info I planned to ask Amoil for when I hit about 1,000 miles. Thank you sir.

 

[ddutil]

Have I missed a war?

Sorry DLeno, I stayed silent because I had lost track of this thread. Looks like I avoided the lions' den this time!



The very reason why I switched to Amsoil 5W30 was that it felt like I was dragging a sleigh behind the truck when shifting "unwarmed".



I knew the differential oil was synthetic, so I figured that switching the transmission to synthetic was the next step. My dealer's mechanic-in-chief told me the Mopar stuff was synthetic but after a few calls I became convinced it was a pseudo-synthetic (Group 2 synthetic i. e. highly refined petroleum oils).



I went to the litlle garage on the corner "what's a PTO cover?",

then local transmission specialist "isn't it a Getrag?",

then dealer "there is a plate that says Mopar only",

and nobody thought it was a good idea. Finally found a big rig place, where the owner said "synthetic 5W30 makes sense, sure is less expensive than the Mopar, good idea to do regular maintenance, see no warning plate Dan!".



Btw, I also have a bypass filter and drop-in replacement filter, and had to install all this myself against everybody's say. Sad eh!?!



I've read the TDR daily for the last 18 months. For their wise advices, Yogibear and Amsoilman have all my trust. Amen.



You now deserve my trust too, for getting a straight answer from Amsoil. Leadership is never easy. Amen again



Dan

 

[EMD-Run8]

I've always been VERY pleased with the results I've gotten with Amsoil on every machine I've used it in. Got some on the way now---5w30 for the transmission and 75w90 for the diff.

 

[DLeno]

well thanks for the kind words, guys. this has been an interesting discovery to be sure! Funny how the "official" party line is often laced with a set of objectives that may not match yours -- like corporate profit. Though I still wonder really what they are out to protect. My guess is that a marketing think tank wants us to think that this transmission is way special...

 

[nwcatman]

in line w/all this. . i get a vibration at 2000prm, while actually under a load, not at idle. is this normal too? goes away at about 2200. thanks 03 2500 ho 6 spd 4x4

 

[ddutil]

There is a "normal" (shame on engineers) vibe when taking off under load, with some configurations (like mine: 2500 2x4 QC SB), caused by the two pieces design of the drive shaft.



I don't think a 2000 rpm vibe is normal. Have you checked in the TSBs / made a search in the forums? Dan

 

[TWestcott]

there is no 2 piece drive shaft in a 2500 4x4 qc sb. Amsoil is not going to fix it either. SURELY somebody has an answer. tw