6speed moan/growl low rpms

[Gary - K7GLD]

"It appears that the answer to this question is YES. Amsoil series 3000 5w 30 meets Mopar MS-9224 and crosses to Mopar transmission fluid 4874464. That means Amsoil will warrant your NV5600 for any fluid related failure. "



UMmmmmm an awful lot of "it appears" and assumptions there - as well as the one stating "Amsoil will warrant"...



Following earlier advice, instead of ASSUMING Amsoil will actually warrant any NV-5600 lube failures - or ones DC claims are lube related - why not ASK AMSOIL if they will provide that NV-5600 coverage when their 5/30 *engine oil* is used in the transmission?



Do it the form of an Email so you/we will have documented proof they will make that guarantee - no assumptions!



"My point is that for me there is too much anectotal evidence and not enough technical information -- for me to make such a significant switch from one lubricant to another. "



YUP - that's been MY concern right along as well!



And assumptions just don't cut it!

 

[ddutil]

nwcatman, check you tires' balance. The 2500 SLT stock wheels are known to loose their balancing weights. I solved this issue with balancing beads (inside!). HTH, Dan



Gary, warranty is an issue that depends on your relationship with the dealer, the records you keep, your knowledge of the law plus your guts to fight.



Find the right dealer, keep your records, know your rights and fight for them. :-{}

 

[EMD-Run8]

I guess a 30 year track record isn't good enough... .....

 

[DLeno]

Originally posted by EMD-Run8

I guess a 30 year track record isn't good enough... .....

no it is not. hard information is required, not soft promises. Gary is absolutely asking the right questions, the answers to which have all been answered satisfactorily by Amsoil. I'll post a copy of their email when I receive it.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Not to beat a dead horse - which we do every time a lube related thread rears it's head - we KNOW Amsoil is good stuff - maybe even the BEST of the synthetics - that's not the issue - NOR is the issue whether or not Amsoil themselves provide a chart showing their 5/30 is the CLOSEST equivelent they have to a NV-5600 lune, and that is what they recommend...



The ISSUE is whether Amsoil will stand behind that *motor oil* with their own warranty if DC refuses to honor a NV-5600 failure - whether DC's analysis of such a failure is correct or not - should the Amsoil buyer be faced with the spectre of fighting that battle with DC themselves and at their own expense, or is Amsoil willing to step up to the plate with a clear statement that they will back any such potential conflicts on THEIR dime?



And for the record, exactly such a case came up about a year ago - I don't recall if it was on this board or another, but a Dodge owner had a failure on his NV-5600, and his local dealership pulled a lube sample from that transmission and told the owner they were sending it in for analysis, and if it was NOT the DC specified lube, warranty on the transmission would ne denied! In his case, it WAS the recommended lube - so no problems with the warranty - but these trannies ain't CHEAP - we KNOW what DC's policy is on VP-44's that have been tampered with - the OWNER pays for their faiure - why would DC be any MORE understanding or forgiving on similar scenarios with a transmission that costs 2 or 3 times as much as a VP-44?



IF cost of repairs and replacements like the NV-5600 are of concern to a owner, he shouldn't THINK or ASSUME where warranty coverage is concerned if he expects to avoid nasty surprises - and it's NOT unreasonable to demand and expect iron-clad printed assurance HE won't be left holding the bag - or an empty wallet if a failure does occur!

 

[amsoilman]

Warranties

The ISSUE is whether Amsoil will stand behind that *motor oil* with their own warranty if DC refuses to honor a NV-5600 failure - whether DC's analysis of such a failure is correct or not - should the Amsoil buyer be faced with the spectre of fighting that battle with DC themselves and at their own expense, or is Amsoil willing to step up to the plate with a clear statement that they will back any such potential conflicts on THEIR dime?

We have been through this time and again, but I will repost what the amsoil "Unconditional" Warranty states, which is found on all their lubricant literature.

inpart



"QUOTE" Amsoil Inc. warranties that the use of its "lubricants" will not cause Mechanical damage to any Mechanically sound equipment when AMSOIL INC. products are used in Full Compliance with the AMSOIL recommendations



And for the record, Amsoil does recommend the HDD 5W-30 engine oil in the NV-5600 transmission.



This Info is NOT to be considered as a flame or contradiction to anyone, just the FACTS!



Best regards,



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"Amsoil Inc. warranties that the use of its "lubricants" will not cause Mechanical damage to any Mechanically sound equipment when AMSOIL INC. products are used in Full Compliance with the AMSOIL recommendations



And for the record, Amsoil does recommend the HDD 5W-30 engine oil in the NV-5600 transmission. "



Thanks Wayne - that seems pretty specific!



And for the record, the following Email has been sent by me directly to Amsoil thru their website - I'll post THEIR response when it arrives...



Two questions:



I have a '02 Dodge 2500 with the NV-5600 manual transmission - I see you have and recommend use of your 5/30 motor oil for use in that transmission - if problems arise that Chrysler claims is lube related, what is your warranty policy to protect me from repair/replacement liability - no tap-dancing please, clear and plain language!



Second, and similar question, you indicate extended engine lube oil changes are OK with your oils - while Chrysler clearly states their expected change intervals - again, if a failure occurs inside the engine that DC then claims is lube related, and denies warranty coverage due to excessive mileage on the lubricant, at what point and how will you cover me as a user of your product?



Let me make it clear that I think you have an EXCELLENT product - but I am concerned as to ACTUAL warranty you provide as opposed to what might merely be assumed by a user.



Thank you.



Now I'll wait and see...

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

SO, what SHOULD a user be entitled to expect from the supplier of a "warranted" non-EOM product they buy and use in /on their vehicle?



Well, in the case of lubricants, *I* would expect that if a component failed, and the local repair facility refused warranty because of their "official" view that the lube was the problem, I should be able to contact the manufacturer of the lube, inform them of the controversy, then stand back as the lube supplier and service facility go head-to-head and arrive at a speedy settlement. .



BUT, what USUALLY happens, is that the warranty is refused, the CUSTOMER is then left on their own and expected at their own expense to "prove" the lube was NOT at fault - or if it WAS at fault, must provide the same "proof" to the lube supplier before THEY will get involved - many times, this involves weeks, months or YEARS, lots of $$$, and legal action!



All for WHAT? to maybe "SAVE" a few miserable dollars on a "as good as" lube they could have as simply bought at the dealership and AVOIDED the possible consequences and liabilities?

 

[DLeno]

interesting dilemma -- what really is the motivation for using Amsoil in the NV5600? some are reporting a fuel economy increase, others report a decrease in gear lash noise. Still others want a less expensive lube so they can change the fluid at regular intervals to obtain "more than enough" confidence in the long term reliability of the transmission. keep in mind that the Mopar fluid is "lifetime" but is only guarenteed for 70,000 miles...



so the Amsoil 5w-30 meets all of those expectations to varying degrees depending on the user and method of measurement. The important thing is that it meets the mopar spec and serves as a non-oem fluid with better performance. just like any other bomb.



so what of the DC party line? Well if a component fails, and they are interested in laying blame on the fluid, they have to show that the fluid was the cause. If the transmission failed before 70,000 miles it will get some attention anyway. And if they can show that the fluid does not meet the Mopar spec, then they have succeded in passing the buck. the problem is that the customer usually has to get legal assistance to go beyond the first denial.



The MM warranty act insures that the burdon of proof is on the mfg to show the cause of failure. That doesn't mean it will be easy for the customer to insist upon, however...

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"The MM warranty act insures that the burdon of proof is on the mfg to show the cause of failure. That doesn't mean it will be easy for the customer to insist upon, however... "



EXACTLY!



And as far as DC's portion of "proof" is concerned, all they need do is point out that their "factory trained expert technician" did the examination - what are YOU the owner going to provide to counter that claim?



And we all KNOW how good the "factory trained experts" really are...



This isn't about how good or bad a lube is - only the potential steps and hoops a owner might have to take if he chooses to cross the line - fortunately, these issues are EXTREMELY rare - but people DO win the lottery every day!

 

[EMD-Run8]

Couldn't that happen with absolutely any "non-oem" product out there assuming you're correct? This is ridiculous! Amsoil or any other aftermarket manufacturer for that matter with a track record like Amsoil's did not get to where they are by "tap-dancing" around warranty issues. They would have long since lost credibility and most or all of their business as well. Remember Slick 50? Doesn't the manufacturer have to prove the failure was caused by the product in question? For instance, if a gear snapped in two without any evidence to support oil-related (or lack thereof) failure then how could the Manufacturer claim that an oil which met the same spec as the their oil be at fault?

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"then how could the Manufacturer claim that an oil which met the same spec as the their oil be at fault?"



Simply as I said above, THEIR in-house factory "expert" SAID the non-OM stuff caused the failure or it contributed to it - NOW, HOW are YOU as the owner going to challenge that decree - or will the supplier of the non-EOM stuff REALLY come in at this point to do the confrontation FOR the owner as some here want to claim they will?



Picture yourself standing at your local DC dealership the day after taking your truck in for a damaged transmission - you are using Red Line. Amsoil, or maybe Crisco - the service guy sez your gearbox is busted because you were using a non-OEM lube - you say PROVE IT - HE sez, we just did - our trained in-house expert disassembled the transmission, and based on his training and experience, that's our decision - warranty denied! NOW what are you going to do, or what will the lube supplier do FOR you?



THAT is the question!



And as has been pointed out before, STP, Prolong, Slick 50 and many other outfits thought by many to be snake oil outfits are still in business too - is that because THEY have "too much to lose" by being misleading or dishonest?



You see, this discussion is as much about HOW warranties are dealt with, and Magnussun/Moss as much as it is lubes - many here THINK an owner holds a whip and all the cards where "proving" warranty issues is concerned - but fact is, once the service facility hs made their expert analysis - right or wrong, the ball and further expense rests upon the CUSTOMER - and how lengthy, difficult and expensive that becomes is determined by where and when the aftermarket supplier is willing to get fully involved - beyond what some of them do, which is merely send you a copy of MM and walk away...

 

[ddutil]

In Quebec we have a Small Court, where one's could bring a case against DC should they deny the warranty. There, you have to defend yourself.



I would expect Amsoil (or any other supplier that stands behind its product) to provide me with a lube expert to support my case. If not, I would be really ****** off and would let the entire planet know.



Of course, I'm not looking for trouble and would prefer to stay away from the lawyers, judges and courts. And resolve this with my dealer (a very nice person, by the way).



If you worry with transmission oil, what about fuel? There was a class action lawsuit against Shell for bad fuel additives. It is not settled in Quebec yet because the consumer protection laws here are more strict than the other provinces. We're putting new fuel every week in CTD, and they are far more complicated than a transmission can be!



Let's all take cabs, the drivers hold the responsibility for car, engine, oil, tires, driving habits and all!

 

[TWestcott]

Amsoil is not the issue to me. I just want to know why these trannies (nvg 5600) make such horrendous noise at low rpm. There has to be a fix and amsoil isnt it. I know for a fact the 2002 and earlier did not have this problem. 2003 and 2004 have it. I think there is some kind of drivetrain harmonic problem. My clutch has been updated still didn't help. tw

 

[EMD-Run8]

It's amazing Slick 50 is in business as many time as they've been in court. I did parts/warranty work in the commercial power equipment business for about 3 yrs (which by no means makes me an expert mind you) and what few instances that did come up concerning oil were kinda like this---------oil related problems show definite patterns like "lack of lubrication" meaning not enough oil in the crankcase or too thin a mixture of 2 cycle oil in the gas tank. This will show itself on rod & bearing journals, scoring on the cylinder walls, heat damage on wrist pins, etc. There's also "improper lubrication" which may mean an out of spec oil or a totally improper oil like bar & chain oil in the fuel tank or crankcase. It happens! We use to keep pictures of some of these instances on what we called the "wall of shame". There's others like some types of corrosion which can happen because of incompatability between dino and synthetic oils. Amsoil IS NOT one of those oils by the way. I don't think there are any synth oils like that around anymore. Moisture/salt in the crankcase can cause this also. My point is it's not as simple as saying our head shop man or tech or whoever says blah blah WITHOUT physical evidence. If that was the case they could say that about a failure even if you used their oil! A broken rod or ring or gear or input shaft or camshaft without any other evidence of an oil problem/failure simply will not fly. They can't keep you from looking at the failed engine/parts. They're yours! You stand your ground and make them show you why they think your oil caused the failure and go from there. Failed parts don't lie! No flame intended here. Please, no one take it that way. Just trying to share some (very) limited experience.

 

[EMD-Run8]

Twescott, As far the noise issue goes I haven't had the clutch problem so I certainly can't comment on that. But, the nv5600 is no lightweight transmission. It's a honker!! I understand it comes in a heavier rating for some medium duty trucks (I think). Those old rockcrushers and toploaders didn't sound like sewing machines either and I dare say the nv5600 is a fair piece stouter than those! I think someone here had spoke to New Venture (it may be in this thread) and they said it was a "burst rattle" or something like that which had to do with engine harmonics. It ain't no foo foo transmission for sure!

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Like EMD sez - these 5600's aren't lightweights - some equate a 6-speed in our trucks to a 6-speed in a vette - not so at all! due to varying manufacturing tolerances and setup, they CAN sometimes be noisy - the potential price paid for a true TRUCK transmission!



STILL, there ARE other possible sources of correctable noise that need to be eliminated - throwout bearing, driveshaft center support if you have one, differential noise that might "telegraph" and sound like the transmission.



It may be unacceptable to some owners - but these are serious WORK trucks - not luxury limosines - and sometimes they ACT like the serious workers they are - *I* can live with that - some folks insist upon and expect something different...

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

UP above, I posted the contents of a query sent to Amsoil as to how they deal with and stand behind their warranty on their products - I received their prompt reply displayed below:



=====

"To: Gary Davidson







From: AMSOIL Technical Services







Thanks for contacting AMSOIL with your concerns.







In response to your inquiry, first of all let me say that we will never recommend any of our products in applications that we were not 100% positive that it was the correct spec. We would much rather say sorry, no product available than sell something incorrect.







As far as warranty coverage from AMSOIL, we are fully backed by a major insurance carrier. In the event of dealer warranty denial an investigation is immediately launched by starting a claim with AMSOIL. This includes initial paperwork and analysis of the suspect fluid. If necessary, an insurance adjuster will be sent to inspect the machine. If the fluid was determined to have caused the problem, we pay as long as the fluid was used according to our recommendations and proper service intervals. As far as the dealer denying warranty because of extended drain interval, but the fluid tests okay, it works like this. Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs) recommend consumers use lubricants of the proper viscosity grade and service classification. Any oil, whether it’s petroleum oil or synthetic, may be used without affecting the overall warranty coverage. OEMs pay or deny warranty claims based on the findings of failure analysis. To affect the vehicle warranty, the lubricant must be directly responsible for the failure. If the oil did not cause the problem the warranty cannot be voided, regardless of the brand of oil used, viscosity, or the length of time or number of miles the oil was used. This is also enforced by the Federal Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act.







There is also a copy of our AMSOIL warranty on our website.















Thank you again for the opportunity to respond to your concerns. As always, please feel free to contact us again if we can be of further assistance. "



=====



Seems good enough for me - certainly as good an expressed warranty as any could expect - no more comments on the issue from me.

 

[EMD-Run8]

No tap dancing there for sure. I'm VERY satisfied with their products. If they say use it----it's G to G all the way.

 

[Blakers]

Originally posted by Gary - KJ6Q

Like EMD sez - these 5600's aren't lightweights - some equate a 6-speed in our trucks to a 6-speed in a vette - not so at all! due to varying manufacturing tolerances and setup, they CAN sometimes be noisy - the potential price paid for a true TRUCK

I agree with Gary and I think some folks here are whining about nothing. Perhaps they never had a truck with a stick shift?



Just go back a few years to a Ford with a New Process 435 4 speed. No syncro in first. Big wide swings on the lever. Knocks the middle guy's knee every time you shift. These transmissions always had a little noise and sometimes a lot.



Later, take the piece-of-junk aluminum-cased Mazda 5 speed Ford used. Mine leaked like a seive. The shifter on top would wear to the point where you couldn't use it and the lever swung side to side all over the place. 1st gear was so high you wore the clutch out starting on hills and reverse was so high you have to slip the clutch to keep it under control backing up. Unless you had a 4x4 with low range, you literally could not back up a trailer.



These are just a few of the other transmissions out there that the NV5600 far surpasses.



I love mine. Works perfectly and no noise!



Blake