Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) 97 with engine electrical problems

[yooper]

Last Friday I went to the county seat to go grocery shopping and pharmacy. Left the pharmacy and the truck wouldn't start. It would start up then stall. It was 25 degrees and of course it had to be windy too. I thought it was fuel gelling, because when I fueled up the previous Friday I didn't put in any additives. I tried many times and then I called my mechanic buddy in the Detroit area. He said that it's probably the shutoff solenoid. I'm not a mechanic at all, but I know little a bit about my Dodge Cummins from reading on the TDR forum.



I held the rod on the shutoff solenoid up and my nephew started the truck. Then I called my brother to bring me some tie wraps on his way to work. I tied the rod up and did my shopping with the truck running and headed home. I thought no problem I'll order a shutoff solenoid and have my mechanic up here install it and I'll be good to go. On the way home I noticed that I didn't have a tach or a speedometer. I also noticed that the volt meter was on zero, but I'm pretty sure that it is the alternator not charging, because the turn signals were getting weaker. Also I noticed I didn't feel it shift and it felt like I was in 3rd gear, so I'm guessing it's in limp mode or something.



My mechanic up here doesn't have much experience with diesels, other than that is is a good mechanic. In fact if he has a problem with a diesel, he calls me for my input.



My truck has 208,000 on odometer, but I've always had oversized tires (295's) so it's a lot more. I'm hoping somebody has had a similar problem so I can tell my mechanic where to look.



Thanks for any help you can give me.

 

[mwilson]

Sounds like the crank position sensor has left town. I know that tells the alternator to charge and probably tells the engine shut-off to stay open after the engine starts. I believe the missing high gear is also a symptom.



Mike.

 

[yooper]

Sounds like the crank position sensor has left town. I know that tells the alternator to charge and probably tells the engine shut-off to stay open after the engine starts. I believe the missing high gear is also a symptom.

Mike.

Thanks Mike for your quick reply. I did a Google search for camshaft position sensor and there is a YouTube video on how to replace it. They also said it should show codes P0341 and P1689. I have a Dodge Cummins shop manual, but I can't find anything on the CPS for the diesel. Can you check for codes without a tester? I seem to remember something about turning the key and checking, but don't remember how.

Ed

 

[surfbeetle]

I think that your alternator not charging has drained the battery to the point that your fuel shutoff solenoid would not move and stay up. The crank position sensor has no effect on the fuel shutoff solenoid. The CPS sends the signal to the PCM which controls the AC and the Alternator. With that said, once you get the charging system working, then you may need to check the relay that controls the Fuel shutoff solenoid.

 

[yooper]

Thanks Mike for your quick reply. I did a Google search for camshaft position sensor and there is a YouTube video on how to replace it. They also said it should show codes P0341 and P1689. I have a Dodge Cummins shop manual, but I can't find anything on the CPS for the diesel. Can you check for codes without a tester? I seem to remember something about turning the key and checking, but don't remember how.

Ed

Sorry, I'm only 66 yrs old, but sometimes my brain acts like it's 106. I finally looked up the right thing. I found out how to change the crankshaft position sensor. They can't be that much so I'll just order one from the Dealer.

Ed

 

[yooper]

I think that your alternator not charging has drained the battery to the point that your fuel shutoff solenoid would not move and stay up. The crank position sensor has no effect on the fuel shutoff solenoid. The CPS sends the signal to the PCM which controls the AC and the Alternator. With that said, once you get the charging system working, then you may need to check the relay that controls the Fuel shutoff solenoid.

My batteries weren't dead or low. When I came out of the pharmacy, I must have tried it a dozen or more times and it started instantly and then shut off. I'm always checking my gauges and don't recall anything out of the ordinary on the way to town. My batteries were getting weaker, because I started it so many times before giving up and calling my buddy.

Thanks
Ed

 

[mwilson]

I believe that there are two circuits involved with the fuel shutoff, a start circuit and a run circuit.

The fact it would start, then stall might indicate that the run circuit was not taking over after releasing the key from the start position to continue holding the solenoid open.

I assume that the crank sensor would provide feedback for that as well as the charging system, etc. that have no other way to tell that the diesel is running. .



There will some more guys jumping on as the evening progresses, see what they say as well.



Mike.

 

[yooper]

I believe that there are two circuits involved with the fuel shutoff, a start circuit and a run circuit.
The fact it would start, then stall might indicate that the run circuit was not taking over after releasing the key from the start position to continue holding the solenoid open.
I assume that the crank sensor would provide feedback for that as well as the charging system, etc. that have no other way to tell that the diesel is running. .

There will some more guys jumping on as the evening progresses, see what they say as well.

Mike.

I think you're right, I'll wait before buying something and get some more opinions. I'm not in that much of a hurry to fix it, because I have another old truck, a 1996 Chevy 4x4.

Thanks
Ed

 

[GAmes]

It is an engine speed sensor, not a crank position sensor (that is 24 valve) and Genos will have a lot better price than the dealer. But before you buy one make sure the wires are good and the grounds on the front/top of the engine are good as well. I suggest you also purchase a factory service manual from Genos, your mechanic needs it if you don't do the work yourself.



The fuel shut off solenoid is often replaced when there is nothing wrong with it. More than likely the boot is deteriorated and is jamming the plunger. Remove, clean the plunger and bore, apply some dry lube and reinstall. I put over half million miles on mine without a boot, but if it is important to you to have one you can get a replacement here. http://fostertruck.com/dodge/ In addition to the solenoid there is a relay on the front firewall that some times fails and a blue fusible link off the drivers side battery. All are available from the above site.

 

[mwilson]

It is an engine speed sensor, not a crank position sensor (that is 24 valve) and Genos will have a lot better price than the dealer. But before you buy one make sure the wires are good and the grounds on the front/top of the engine are good as well. I suggest you also purchase a factory service manual from Genos, your mechanic needs it if you don't do the work yourself.



The fuel shut off solenoid is often replaced when there is nothing wrong with it. More than likely the boot is deteriorated and is jamming the plunger. Remove, clean the plunger and bore, apply some dry lube and reinstall. I put over half million miles on mine without a boot, but if it is important to you to have one you can get a replacement here. http://fostertruck.com/dodge/ In addition to the solenoid there is a relay on the front firewall that some times fails and a blue fusible link off the drivers side battery. All are available from the above site.

Whoops, trying to squeeze in a post while working and used the wrong term... . yes, engine speed sensor. My bad... . :{



But if the engine speed sensor or wiring is not telling the BCM (or whatever) that the engine is running now what would keep the solenoid in the run position?? We all know how the start position works (refer to sticking starter contacts and resulting panic) but I am betting if there is a loss of signal because the BCM does not see the crankshaft turning that the run circuit does not get energized.



If that were not the case why are the trucks built with a start circuit at all??? Because a keyed power only actuated shutoff would be downright dangerous.



Just my theory...



Mike.

 

[GAmes]

But if the engine speed sensor or wiring is not telling the BCM (or whatever) that the engine is running now what would keep the solenoid in the run position?? We all know how the start position works (refer to sticking starter contacts and resulting panic) but I am betting if there is a loss of signal because the BCM does not see the crankshaft turning that the run circuit does not get energized.



If that were not the case why are the trucks built with a start circuit at all??? Because a keyed power only actuated shutoff would be downright dangerous.

Two different problems here. The ESS tells the powertrain control module (PCM) that the engine is running. That effects the charging of the alternator, shifting of an automatic trans, cruise control and something I can't remember right now. It does not affect the shutoff solenoid. When the ignition is in the start position a relay pulls the plunger up. When the key is returned to on, there is a hold circuit that holds the plunger up. The engine does not have to be running, the key just has to be on. In fact, you can turn the key on, then push the lever up manually and it will stay up.

 

[Bob4x4]

The hold coil is energized by key on but is not strong enough to pull up,that coil is energized by start signal

 

[mwilson]

Two different problems here. The ESS tells the powertrain control module (PCM) that the engine is running. That effects the charging of the alternator, shifting of an automatic trans, cruise control and something I can't remember right now. It does not affect the shutoff solenoid. When the ignition is in the start position a relay pulls the plunger up. When the key is returned to on, there is a hold circuit that holds the plunger up. The engine does not have to be running, the key just has to be on. In fact, you can turn the key on, then push the lever up manually and it will stay up.

Gary, you are correct. I just went out into the cold, dark Maine night (I was kinda' scared) and tried it on the '97. Even got a little dirt on the sleeve of my pretty little Freightliner Jacket...



Key on, it will hold it open if you push it up.



So either the voltage dropped enough to still turn the truck over but not hold the solenoid open as suggested above or he does indeed have two issues (which still seems a little funky)... .



Get that beauty a chargin' again, maybe the shut off issue will go away at the same time. If not, then the relay or the fusible may have taken time off.



This was taken at a neighbor's house over Thanksgiving weekend, thus the reason I was on high alert while outside just now... .

Mike.

 

[GAmes]

This was taken at a neighbor's house over Thanksgiving weekend, thus the reason I was on high alert while outside just now... .



View attachment 83451

That is a really ugly blind date or a freezer filler. :-laf

 

[Dieseldemon]

Ck the blue fuseable link on the drs side battery that is probably the most common problem.

 

[NIsaacs]

Ck the blue fuseable link on the drs side battery that is probably the most common problem.

I agree, and even more probable, the connection itself. I have seen them corroded completely in two. Either the teminal or the wire itself will corrode up in the insulation and be bad. Check this area real good, all the connections at this point of battery contact.



Nick

 

[yooper]

It is an engine speed sensor, not a crank position sensor (that is 24 valve) and Genos will have a lot better price than the dealer. But before you buy one make sure the wires are good and the grounds on the front/top of the engine are good as well. I suggest you also purchase a factory service manual from Genos, your mechanic needs it if you don't do the work yourself.



The fuel shut off solenoid is often replaced when there is nothing wrong with it. More than likely the boot is deteriorated and is jamming the plunger. Remove, clean the plunger and bore, apply some dry lube and reinstall. I put over half million miles on mine without a boot, but if it is important to you to have one you can get a replacement here. http://fostertruck.com/dodge/ In addition to the solenoid there is a relay on the front firewall that some times fails and a blue fusible link off the drivers side battery. All are available from the above site.

I don't know if you remember me, but I talked to you on the phone in Dec 07 about my truck problem. It was the intake heater grid relays.



Oct 8, 12 I disconnected every cable/wire on my batteries and cleaned them with my dremel brush and then coated every one with dielectric grease.

I bought a factory 97 Dodge shop manual in 1999 for $104. My mechanics have used it on my truck and borrowed it for other trucks.

I know about Larry B's and Geno's, I just forgot about them when I was going to buy some parts.



I know the speedometer worked on the way to town, because I set my cruise control to 58 mph like I always do.



Recap, no tach, no speedometer, no wait to start light, not charging, won't shift/limp mode, shutoff solenoid won't stay in run position.



Thanks

Ed

 

[GAmes]

I have a mild case of CRS, but I vaguely remember a year ago. :-laf No speedometer changes the whole ball game. It is separate from the ESS and not related to the solenoid. I think I would start by checking every ground wire in the engine bay. Since you have a FSM it shouldn't be too tough to find them. That isn't to say you shouldn't check the blue fusible link, the relay and the solenoid. Is there any chance you know someone else with a '97 auto? The only thing that links ESS inputs and speedo inputs (if everything else is OK) is the PCM. To my knowledge however, that doesn't explain the solenoid. I have a spare that I picked up at a salvage yard a couple years ago, but I'm pretty sure that manual trans and auto trans PCMs are different.

 

[mwilson]

Ignition switch??????



Mike.

 

[GAmes]

Ignition switch??????



Mike.

Without looking at a wire diagram I believe that is possible. You could also try moving the tilt up and down.