A Tale of RV Quality - Not

[HBarlow]

This afternoon my wife returned home from Lubbock and told me she had passed a Dodge truck and fifth wheel on the side of the road, apparently stranded, about 1/2 mile from our farmhouse.

I usually help a stranded motorist, even if it's a Furd Sick. Ohh and surely don't want a Dodge sitting on the side of the road embarrassing the owner and myself so I got in her car and drove down the highway to see if I could help.

It was a guy with a shiny new Dodge Ram 1/2 ton hemi (yukk) pulling a new looking '09 Forest River Surveyor 30' fifth wheel. They had just bought it a couple weeks ago, still had the paper license plate. They made it approximately 50 miles from Lubbock and the outer wheel bearing on the left rear wheel disintegrated and almost lost the wheel and tire. The couple with the Dodge was followed by their daughter and son-in-law in a GM duradud pulling another flatbed trailer loaded with four wheelers.

They had the left rear hub off and were trying to find a part number on a destroyed wheel bearing. When it became clear they weren't going to find a part number I suggested they would have to pull the left front wheel and hub to get the part number but suggested that instead, they remove the jack and limp it down the highway on three wheels about 1/2 mile to my place before they tried to repair it. This would get it off the highway to either repair it in a safer place or leave it overnight.

We had already determined that the axles had a Lippert tag on them but the brake backing plates were clearly marked "CHINA. " When they removed the jack and allowed the left side to rest on one tire it was almost flat. I looked more closely and realized it had four Goodyear Marathon tires in size ST225/75 R15 Load Range "C. " I couldn't believe it. Lippert frame, ChiComm running gear, and four load range C 15" tires on a 30'+ fifth wheel trailer.

They were very disappointed and talking among themselves about getting the dealer to take it back. I didn't tell them the truth about their trailer but I know the dealer won't take it back. They will be making payments on that POS for years while hating it.

They were able to limp it to my place and sent the women back into Lubbock to a parts store and bought a replacement outer bearing and race. I let them use my barn, tools, floor jack, and stands to replace the bearing and race and get it back on the road and they just left a few minutes ago. They were going to a deer lease to do some hunting and planned to spend the night in that trailer with overnight low temps predicted to be down in the lower 20* range. They'll have a very uncomfortable night. I feel sorry for them.

 

[Gonzo 1066]

To sell a trailer like that in the USA should be ILLEAGAL period. I am sure the dealer knows full well what a POS it was, and just wanted the money. Let the consumer beware is a phraze we all need to know. There is a lot of GARBAGE that looks pretty sold out there.

 

[Bill Stockard]

It amazes me how many people don't look beyond the "eye candy".



Bill

 

[HBarlow]

Gonzo, I'd like to agree with you but where does personal responsibility enter into the discussion? Government can't effectively perform it's constitutional responsibilities and sure as heck can't protect each and everyone of us from our own stupidity.

A casual reading on most RV forums or purchase of the RV buyer's guide that Grizzly owns and frequently gives advice from could have saved this mature couple from loss of thousands of dollars and years of disappointment.

They are a nice family and I enjoyed meeting them, talking with them, and helping them. I felt very sorry for them as I looked at the pos they were towing but they did it to themselves.

The dealership certainly knows that the trailer is junk but lots of prospective RV buyers prefer new and cheap in that price range and will buy it.

 

[Grizzly]

I had the same problem pulling a Holiday Rambler Alumi-Lite 29' 5th wheel with my, then, 95 Dodge/Cummins DRW coming back from Alaska in September 1995. The trailer had Dexter axles and running gear, only too small for the size and weight of the 5er. I had to tie up the axle with bailing wire and limp back to 100 Mile House, BC on three wheels, which was about 15 miles. 100 Mile House is between Prince George and Vancouver, BC. The trailer was great, but the running gear and the 15" wheels with ST tires stunk.



That's the reason why I sold the 5er and purchased a new Lance camper. No extra axles, no ST tires, no suspension and no frame.



Moral of the story, you got to have the right frame and running gear under a trailer to match the size and weight of the trailer.



george

 

[RustyJC]

Caveat Emptor (let the buyer beware) means the onus is on the consumer to research his purchase before making it. Many of us got into RVing many years ago before resources such as the Internet were available, and we either got lucky, got good advice from friends or wound up buying our education the hard way. Today, however, with all the resources available, it's hard to find a lot of sympathy for the consumer who walks into a dealer all fat, dumb and happy and plops down his money (or, worse yet, signs a loan) for something that he hasn't adequately researched.



Rusty

 

[Gonzo 1066]

Caveat Emptor (let the buyer beware) means the onus is on the consumer to research his purchase before making it. Many of us got into RVing many years ago before resources such as the Internet were available, and we either got lucky, got good advice from friends or wound up buying our education the hard way. Today, however, with all the resources available, it's hard to find a lot of sympathy for the consumer who walks into a dealer all fat, dumb and happy and plops down his money (or, worse yet, signs a loan) for something that he hasn't adequately researched.



Rusty

Unfortunately this is where the problem lies. Most families will only buy one RV in their lifetime and when the choice is a poor one they will NEVER buy one again. This is bad for the industry and very dangerous to the rest of us driving on the highway. Those of us that have owned good RV's and are mechanically inclined can all talk about the research that it takes to buy a good rig, but without proper education most consumers just look at the color of the carpet and where the toilet is. Just a sad sad deal.



I agree that legislation is not going to cure this kind of problem, maybe some sort of "code of ethics" among manufacturers and dealers?? Where is Consumers digest??

 

[RustyJC]

I agree that legislation is not going to cure this kind of problem, maybe some sort of "code of ethics" among manufacturers and dealers???

In theory, you have one - the RVIA (Recreational Vehicle Industry Association). Their members even pay to place the RVIA construction seal next to the entry door. Unfortunately, being a member organization that doesn't enforce any construction standards or inspect member facilities for conformance, the sticker really doesn't mean anything.



Rusty

 

[HBarlow]

The couple with the lousy Surveyor could probably make a decent fair weather trailer out of it for approximately $2000 to $2500 but I didn't want to add to their disappointment by telling them that.

A new pair of of 6,000 lb. Dexter axles, Dexter springs, equalizers, brakes, four shocks, and four 16" wheels and American brand name tires would give them good service for many years.

I figured they haven't even made the first payment on it and weren't very likely to appreciate my advice to replace the suspension, wheels, and tires.

 

[AMink]

I think RV's are one of the bigger "live and learn" lessons in life. While we peruse these forums and have the luck to learn from other's mistakes on many issues, not everyone does the same.



We are on our second trailer. It is OK, but there are issues, not the least of which are the 15" rims with Chicom original rubber. There are several other items that are anywhere from annoying to painful. How many times will I bump my head on the fancy light that hangs down right where you stand up to get off the couch?



If this family can prove the axles and tires are legally under-rated for the size of the box, they might have a case. They could always try Good Sam to intercede for them. Sometimes people get at least a little for their troubles.

 

[ringneck]

how about the half ton,not to informed. when you spend that much money you should ask people that pulls rv and read about what you are about to get in to. there are no lemon law on rvs. once that got your money thats it.

 

[HBarlow]

The Forest River Surveyor fifth wheel was even worse than I thought. I was puzzled because as I stood alongside the pos it looked as long as my own fifth wheel. I asked the owners how long it was and was told 30'.

I was doubtful and finally got around to looking it up on the FR website. It is actually over 34' long! Wow. A 34' 3" trailer on 15" load range C tires! I am certain this is the trailer because I looked at the decal beside the entry door. Also remember it had a center street side slide and bunk bed crawl through door at the curbside rear corner.

http://www.forestriverinc.com/nd/de...oice=surv&nav=rec&name=3211&series=TTrailers8

I can only guess at the frame and wall construction materials and methods that would allow building a 34' fifth wheel that weighs 6,000 lbs. dry.

 

[JRMora]

Harvey, the Surveyor isn't a fifth wheel, it's a travel trailer. That said, the trailer should have been equipped with 5000# axles at a minimum along with 15" D rated 225's. 6k axles/E rated tires would certainly be more robust but would likely be overkill for a trailer that size and weight. Per the FR Surveyor brochure, that trailer (SV-304) should have come equipped with ST225/75R15D tires (which carry a weight rating of 2540# each). So, if the trailer did have C's on it, they were not the right tire. Or maybe it wasn't the Surveyor SV-304. Maybe it was the SV-294 (which has a nealy identical layout) which has as GVWR of ~7000# which would be fine with C's.

It's sad they had problems with their new trailer. Nothing sucks worse than being broken down on the side of the road while towing a trailer. It has happened to me on a 100 degree day in West TX miles from anywhere (it was the truck that broke, not the trailer, though).

A lot of people bash FR here. I respect that they have a lower rating in George's book (Hey Griz). However, I have been very happy with mine. I have slept in it over 420 nights in weather from -10 degrees to +110. My trailer came equipped with Merits (made in Canada) which I replaced after five years (six years by DOT codes) with USA made BFG Commercial TA's. My only problems have been with the cheap Concertone stereos and Amana microwaves. My running gear (frame, axles, brakes) has given me no problems.

I liked the Artic Fox (I know they are well made) but they didn't have a model with enough room for me and my family.

Let the buyer make an informed decision. Maybe someday the RV industry will up their quality levels, but in the meantime, you'll find chinese made components in $10k trailers and $100k trailers. You've pulled enough. You know this to be true.

Bomb's away!

Juan

 

[HBarlow]

Uhhh, Juan, the trailer was here on my property before my own eyes and you're telling me I couldn't distinguish between a conventional travel trailer and a fifth wheel?

Nice try.

Try looking again at the FR website. Maybe it is you who doesn't know the difference.

I looked around a little on the FR website. The trailer I wrote about above is a 2009 FR Surveyor SVF306BH which is pictured and details are provided on the website.

 

[JRMora]

Harvey, relax a little. I went to the link you provided and the *only* Surveyor models I can find on the FR website are the "Surveyor Eco Lite Edition Super Lite Travel Trailers". The link you provided was to the SV-304 TRAVEL TRAILER. That's what the floorplan is.

I know you know the difference between a 5er and TT. Are you sure it was a Surveyor? Maybe they had a Surveyor fifth wheel in 2009, but the 2010 models are all travel trailers PER FOREST RIVER's WEBSITE. Maybe the specs for a 2009 fifth wheel were different than the 2010 model YOU PROVIDED THE LINK FOR.

???

If I'm missing something, please point me in the right direction.

Juan

 

[mwilson]

Looks like a 2009 thing. Had to go in thru a Forest River Forum to find the 2009 Brochure.

Not easy to find... ... They are grouped under the Lite Travel Trailers rather than the Fifth Wheels.



Open the third brochure down, then go to the bottom of the brochure to see the Fifth Wheels,



Surveyor Travel Trailers & Fifth Wheels Brochures



Mike.

 

[JRMora]

Thanks Mike. I don't think this model carried over to 2010.

That said, I'll say again what I said before. If you take the largest 2009 Surveyor fifth wheel, the SVF306BH, the specs show a 7301# empty weight, a 2356# cargo capacity should result in a 9657# GVWR. The hitch weight for the empty trailer is 1535#. That's a 21% pin weight. At gross weight with the same percentage, the weight on the wheels would be 7627#. That's 3814# per axle. That's within the ratings for a ST225/75R15C tire (2150 ea or 4300 per pair). So just because it has C rated tires doesn't make it a disaster waiting to happen.

My first travel trailer had C rated tires and it gave me many years of service without any tire issues. Putting E rated 16's is way overkill for a trailer this size. Even D's would be a bit of overkill. I don't think it's the rating so much as the country of origin that is causing problems on larger trailers and I believe this is because they are loaded over the rated allowance.

And I also stand by in saying most trailers I saw at the last RV show I went to had tires sourced from China. At that included $100k+ rigs.

Sorry Harvey for making you believe I was doubting you. I was only going from the information you sent. Thanks again. Mike, for setting me straight.

Juan

 

[HBarlow]

Juan, you're correct about the claimed dry weight which is a useless number. No trailer ever weighs what the manufacturer claims as empty weight. The brochure does claim approximately 7k lbs. I didn't look hard enough to find the '09 brochure when I posted earlier today and relied on the details printed on the website about the 2010 model.

However, regardless what the brochure claims, the VIN tag of the trailer I was exposed to clearly showed a GVWR of 10,700 or 10,900 lbs. , don't remember which figure now, but it was astonishing to read regardless which figure is correct. That figure from my memory matches the figure claimed for the '10 model.

NO 15" LRC tire is adequate on a large fifth wheel travel trailer even if the trailer, when fully loaded, is within the tire capability because such a tire has a light duty casing and very soft passenger car sidewalls.

That fact was clearly demonstrated when the owners removed the wheel and tire with the damaged wheel bearing leaving the weight of the left side of the trailer on one wheel. The tire sidewall was crushed to half it's original height. It was so severe I was doubtful they would be able to tow it, even at 5mph, approximately 1/2 mile down the highway shoulder and across the highway to enter the back gate of my property. That is not a strange or abnormal situation. It will be duplicated anytime a tire fails and rapidly loses inflation pressure. A flat tire on that trailer at 60 mph is guaranteed to produce two failed tires, two destroyed rims, and severe sidewall, slide room, and floor damage, even damaged plumbing, wiring harnesses, and cabinets before the driver gets it stopped.

If you look back at my second post I think you will notice I didn't say anything about LRE tires, only 16" tires. 16"LT tires are a far different product with far greater strength and endurance than a 15" ST rim wraps.

I found it interesting comparing the '09 and '10 brochures. It revealed Forest River's ethics in my opinion. The '09 lists "1 1/2" block insulation" as the insulation used in the '09 trailer. The '10 trailer brochure shows a comparison between "2" block insulation claimed for the '10 model and suggests that 1 1/2" block insulation used by the competition is inferior.

My purpose here is not to offend or embarrass anyone who owns one of these trailers or is loyal to the brand, my purpose is to present facts and my opinion for those who have never owned a trailer and are considering purchasing one. Everyone is free to agree or disagree.

Discussions here inform many members and assist them in making informed choices. That is the benefit of membership.

 

[JRMora]

Harvey, one last comment and then I'll drop this.

I suppose even if the tag was 10,900 GVWR it's technically still within the limits of the LR C tires. Right at the limits which even i would balk at, but technically within the limits. At 10,900# and a 21% pin weight (see above) the weight on wheels is right around 8600#. Divide by 4 and you have 2150 per tire which is the rating for a ST225/75R15C tire. (By the way, all figures quoted come from Goodyear's Marathon Tire specs on Goodyear's website). I would agree that it is unwise to run all the way to the limit as there is no margin for error (one tire low, one side heavier than the other, etc. ) For that I would agree.

As for the loading of the remaining tire, it was grossly overloaded when they lost the other tire. In essence, it was carry 4300# but was designed only for 2150#. That's why it was crushed to half it's height. Short of a 16 ply tire, most any tire loaded to 2x is max load (including LT's) will be overstressed by that kind of load.

Anyway, as you say, it's about being informed and about making choices. Thank you for listening to my opinion.

I'll say no more.

Juan

 

[Grizzly]

Harvey, the Surveyor isn't a fifth wheel, it's a travel trailer. That said, the trailer should have been equipped with 5000# axles at a minimum along with 15" D rated 225's. 6k axles/E rated tires would certainly be more robust but would likely be overkill for a trailer that size and weight. Per the FR Surveyor brochure, that trailer (SV-304) should have come equipped with ST225/75R15D tires (which carry a weight rating of 2540# each). So, if the trailer did have C's on it, they were not the right tire. Or maybe it wasn't the Surveyor SV-304. Maybe it was the SV-294 (which has a nealy identical layout) which has as GVWR of ~7000# which would be fine with C's.



It's sad they had problems with their new trailer. Nothing sucks worse than being broken down on the side of the road while towing a trailer. It has happened to me on a 100 degree day in West TX miles from anywhere (it was the truck that broke, not the trailer, though).



A lot of people bash FR here. I respect that they have a lower rating in George's book (Hey Griz). However, I have been very happy with mine. I have slept in it over 420 nights in weather from -10 degrees to +110. My trailer came equipped with Merits (made in Canada) which I replaced after five years (six years by DOT codes) with USA made BFG Commercial TA's. My only problems have been with the cheap Concertone stereos and Amana microwaves. My running gear (frame, axles, brakes) has given me no problems.



I liked the Artic Fox (I know they are well made) but they didn't have a model with enough room for me and my family.



Let the buyer make an informed decision. Maybe someday the RV industry will up their quality levels, but in the meantime, you'll find chinese made components in $10k trailers and $100k trailers. You've pulled enough. You know this to be true.



Bomb's away!



Juan

Hi Juan. Good post.



george