A Tale of RV Quality - Not

[bheiting]

Before I bought my truck camper, I read "How to Select, Inspect, and Buy an RV" by RV industry consultant JD Gallant. He points out that any moron with a shop can start manufacturing RVs - at least trailers. In this industry, it's buyer beware. I'll never forget the roll over we came upon in Nova Scotia. The trailer (wood frame construction) was nothing more than a pile of kindling scattered along the ditch.

 

[HBarlow]

Juan,

If you are pleased with your Forest River trailer I am happy for you. It was your money and your choice.

However, large and heavy fifth wheels with real tires on them can handle blowouts and flat tires. I would not accept any trailer with 15" LRC tires as good enough.

I blew an inferior quality Uniroyal LT235/85 R16 LRE tire on my HH at 65 mph on I-40 between ABQ and the Santa Rosa exit when the trailer was only one year old and had only 16k towing miles on the tires. The remaining tire on the street side supported the load at normal height without being crushed to the rim like the 15 LRC tire rubber rim cover on the fifth wheel that was at my place a few days ago. When the tire blew I slowed carefully and pulled my trailer to the side of I-40, examined the tire failure and damage, and got back in and drove very slowly several miles to the next exit where I could get clear of the interstate and change the tire without danger of being run over by an inattentive driver. The single tire on the left side was surely overloaded to twice it's rated capacity but it was a truck tire and capable of carrying the load at low speed for a limited distance.

Being equipped with real tires designated LT in 16" size would be a deal breaker or minimum standard for me on any fifth wheel travel trailer or large, heavy conventional travel trailer.

You stated that $100k trailers can have ChiComm components . . . well, not any $100k trailer I would buy. I am not aware of any $100k trailers that use them although I am aware of some expensive brands that do use Chicomm components.

My HitchHiker had a MSRP under well under $100k and does not. It was built on a Young's Welding (Chanute, KS) frame using Dexter running gear and 16" LT tires. Those details were included in my shopping criteria as absolute requirements.

 

[HBarlow]

Before I bought my truck camper, I read "How to Select, Inspect, and Buy an RV" by RV industry consultant JD Gallant. He points out that any moron with a shop can start manufacturing RVs - at least trailers. In this industry, it's buyer beware. I'll never forget the roll over we came upon in Nova Scotia. The trailer (wood frame construction) was nothing more than a pile of kindling scattered along the ditch.

That is true. Also any slick charlatan who knows better but also knows the buying public generally does not know better.

Execs and managers in the big RV manufacturing companies know right from wrong, quality from junk, but equipping their products with cheap minimum components allows them to sell the products at lower prices to uninformed buyers.

A wise buyer considering the purchase of an expensive item such as an RV should do what you did. Accurate and objective information before the purchase can save a buyer from a lot of heartbreak and wasted money.

 

[meanmatt]

Well at the very least I hope they get some warrenty money from the failed bearing. Very doubtful the dealer would do any more then that . My feeling are since sales where so poor over that year alot of frame and axles sat in factory back lots exposed to the elements . I suspect even partial assembled parts where outside like that too. So now that rvs are starting to move again . I'm betting the factories are using up all the parts they have sitting around before they buy new . With factory workers coming back at lower wages . Chances are they don't really care about rust on bearing , or if it is even greesed . Just throw it together and collect that check .

 

[HBarlow]

Well at the very least I hope they get some warrenty money from the failed bearing. Very doubtful the dealer would do any more then that . My feeling are since sales where so poor over that year alot of frame and axles sat in factory back lots exposed to the elements . I suspect even partial assembled parts where outside like that too. So now that rvs are starting to move again . I'm betting the factories are using up all the parts they have sitting around before they buy new . With factory workers coming back at lower wages . Chances are they don't really care about rust on bearing , or if it is even greesed . Just throw it together and collect that check .

I hadn't thought of that but you are probably exactly right. Frames and axle assemblies probably sat outside in the weather for long periods of time in the supply pipeline before trailers were assembled.

And as you stated, thousands of RV manufacturing employees in the Elkhart area were laid off for a long period and motivation to work with enthusiasm or attention to detail at lower wages would not be likely.

We put another cheap ChiComm wheel bearing and race in the hub at my place last Friday evening so the owner might even have trouble collecting reimbursement for parts and labor for the wheel bearing. The rear half of the brake shoes on that wheel were destroyed from dragging hard on the brake drum at a severe angle and that will have to be replaced.

I didn't contribute to the discussion among the family members but the wife was clearly talking about trying to make the dealer take the pos back. They were talking about other problems they had already experienced before the wheel bearing failure. I kept my mouth shut and didn't tell them they had been raped, robbed, and left for dead with that trailer and would regret it as long as they own it.

 

[AMink]

My feeling are since sales where so poor over that year alot of frame and axles sat in factory back lots exposed to the elements .

I think you are exactly right. Before I knew about the date stamps on tires, we bought our 2005 trailer. Tire blew soon thereafter. Learned about date stamps and discovered the Chicom tires had been manufactured in 2002. So my "brand new" tires were 3 years old when I got them. I imagine the axles sat out with the tires at the plant for who knows how long.

 

[meanmatt]

I think they are lucky they had a trailer . Imagine the problems with the class a's and other powered rvs. I have had a bearing fail on the road with my trailer in Beatty Nv. Had to ditch the trailer drive to Parump to get a new bearing . With a moterized Rv you most likely would be stuck with a huge tow bill to an autherized rv service center.

But back to trailers I learned my lesson on borrowing greese from work . Also I keep all my bearing reciepts with the parts numbers on them . Makes finding a replacement much easier.

 

[THoltz]

A year or so back, Berkshire Hathaway purchased Forest River. If you have ever read about Berkshire Hathaway, you might be under the impression, like me, that product quality of all the companies they own is of prime concern to them. I am surprised to read that FR may still have some lapses in their day to day committment to quality. An interesting string of posts.

 

[FPettijohn]

That trailer was made in Indiana and pulled to wherever to be sold. Is it FR's responsibility to make sure the dealer checked the wheel bearings or the dealers. If I take delivery of anything new I will check tire and hub temperature with an infrared gun 3 or 4 times in the 1st hundred miles. I have seen good mechanics tighten an axle nut to what he thinks is correct without seating the bearing 1st or not checking the washer for clearance. I also laugh at all of you who rail against Chinese manufacturing but rush to Walmart to buy buy buy and who also drive a Tundra or KIA. We have indeed become an oxymoron.

Fred

 

[RustyJC]

Ummmm..... the Toyota Tundra is manufactured in San Antonio, TX which, when I was there this morning, was still in the U. S. Unfortunately, can't say the same for my hecho en Mexico 2011 Ram.



Rusty

 

[HBarlow]

I see no reason to bring Wal-Mart purchases into this discussion but since someone considers it important, I personally shop and save a ton of money at Wal-Mart and occasionally the Communist Chinese tool store, Harbor Freight. I have also owned three Dodge Rams built in MX. I prefer vehicles built in Mexico over overpriced labor union products. Furds and Government Motors trucks are nowhere near as good as my Dodges and cost thousands of dollars more. My wife has owned a couple of Toyotas, a BMW, a Honda, and now a Nissan, all good automobiles.

I see no need to defend my patriotism having served in the Navy for almost half of my life. I buy the products that I consider provide the best value for my buying dollar.

 

[Kirwin]

Some of us learn the hard way

I'm on my third Holiday Rambler TT. The first one had GY marathons. The second one I specified 16" tires and Dexter Never-Lube axles and it came with GY wranglers. I swapped them for Michelin XPS (thanks for the tip Harvey). Still on a 12,000lb trailer I felt that they were too close to their limits. On my last one I specified GY G614 RSTs. It came from Monaco with China Freestar tires. I said no way and luckily for me I had actually written on the contract GY G614 RST LR G. My dealer did the right thing and took the GY G614 RSTs off another trailer he had on the lot and put them on my trailer. Some have had issues with this tire as well. I had one that developed a soft area in the tread. My local Goodyear dealer says its not a defect. I don't care what he says the tire is defective and I'll not have it ruin my vacation/trip/damage my trailer when it fails and it will fail. its in the garage gathering dust.



All this is to say that I consider my self an engineer. I understand loading and structural forces on the running gear of trailers. Many manufacturers make good products as long as you properly size them for the intended load. This is where most RV manufacturers fail. The bean counters skimp on the running gear becasue many RVs do not get many miles put on them while they are under waranty so no waranteable failures for running gear problems.



By the way Lippert Componets contributes to this in that they are using a Ny-Lok nut to hold the bearing assembly on the axle. This is very similair to the Dexter Axle Never-Lube axle set up minus the snap ring. Unfortunately this nut tends to loosen on the drivers side axles. Just ask me how I know this. There is no locking mechanism, no cotter key or locking tab on the washer, just a nylock nut tightened against the bearing cartridge assembly. Poor design in my opinion. Why would you ever use a Ny-Lok nut on a brake componet. Just give me a double taper bearing set up like the old days and I'll adjust it and set the clearence and use a castle nut and a cotter pin and be done with it. My 0. 02. Ken Irwin

 

[AClayton]

Very good post!!^^

 

[CUMMINZ]

Juan, you're correct about the claimed dry weight which is a useless number. No trailer ever weighs what the manufacturer claims as empty weight. The brochure does claim approximately 7k lbs. I didn't look hard enough to find the '09 brochure when I posted earlier today and relied on the details printed on the website about the 2010 model.



However, regardless what the brochure claims, the VIN tag of the trailer I was exposed to clearly showed a GVWR of 10,700 or 10,900 lbs. , don't remember which figure now, but it was astonishing to read regardless which figure is correct. That figure from my memory matches the figure claimed for the '10 model.



NO 15" LRC tire is adequate on a large fifth wheel travel trailer even if the trailer, when fully loaded, is within the tire capability because such a tire has a light duty casing and very soft passenger car sidewalls.



That fact was clearly demonstrated when the owners removed the wheel and tire with the damaged wheel bearing leaving the weight of the left side of the trailer on one wheel. The tire sidewall was crushed to half it's original height. It was so severe I was doubtful they would be able to tow it, even at 5mph, approximately 1/2 mile down the highway shoulder and across the highway to enter the back gate of my property. That is not a strange or abnormal situation. It will be duplicated anytime a tire fails and rapidly loses inflation pressure. A flat tire on that trailer at 60 mph is guaranteed to produce two failed tires, two destroyed rims, and severe sidewall, slide room, and floor damage, even damaged plumbing, wiring harnesses, and cabinets before the driver gets it stopped.



If you look back at my second post I think you will notice I didn't say anything about LRE tires, only 16" tires. 16"LT tires are a far different product with far greater strength and endurance than a 15" ST rim wraps.



I found it interesting comparing the '09 and '10 brochures. It revealed Forest River's ethics in my opinion. The '09 lists "1 1/2" block insulation" as the insulation used in the '09 trailer. The '10 trailer brochure shows a comparison between "2" block insulation claimed for the '10 model and suggests that 1 1/2" block insulation used by the competition is inferior.



My purpose here is not to offend or embarrass anyone who owns one of these trailers or is loyal to the brand, my purpose is to present facts and my opinion for those who have never owned a trailer and are considering purchasing one. Everyone is free to agree or disagree.



Discussions here inform many members and assist them in making informed choices. That is the benefit of membership.

HB, in your opening post you called this FR RV a "POS". :-{} Are you talking out of both sides of your mouth?

 

[Grizzly]

I'm on my third Holiday Rambler TT. The first one had GY marathons. The second one I specified 16" tires and Dexter Never-Lube axles and it came with GY wranglers. I swapped them for Michelin XPS (thanks for the tip Harvey). Still on a 12,000lb trailer I felt that they were too close to their limits. On my last one I specified GY G614 RSTs. It came from Monaco with China Freestar tires. I said no way and luckily for me I had actually written on the contract GY G614 RST LR G. My dealer did the right thing and took the GY G614 RSTs off another trailer he had on the lot and put them on my trailer. Some have had issues with this tire as well. I had one that developed a soft area in the tread. My local Goodyear dealer says its not a defect. I don't care what he says the tire is defective and I'll not have it ruin my vacation/trip/damage my trailer when it fails and it will fail. its in the garage gathering dust.



All this is to say that I consider my self an engineer. I understand loading and structural forces on the running gear of trailers. Many manufacturers make good products as long as you properly size them for the intended load. This is where most RV manufacturers fail. The bean counters skimp on the running gear becasue many RVs do not get many miles put on them while they are under waranty so no waranteable failures for running gear problems.



By the way Lippert Componets contributes to this in that they are using a Ny-Lok nut to hold the bearing assembly on the axle. This is very similair to the Dexter Axle Never-Lube axle set up minus the snap ring. Unfortunately this nut tends to loosen on the drivers side axles. Just ask me how I know this. There is no locking mechanism, no cotter key or locking tab on the washer, just a nylock nut tightened against the bearing cartridge assembly. Poor design in my opinion. Why would you ever use a Ny-Lok nut on a brake componet. Just give me a double taper bearing set up like the old days and I'll adjust it and set the clearence and use a castle nut and a cotter pin and be done with it. My 0. 02. Ken Irwin

I purchased a new Holiday Rambler 5th wheel with Dexter axles and running gear, which came with 15" ST GY marathon tires in 1988. In 1995 we took an 11K mile round trip to Alaska with my brand new 95 Dodge/Cummins DRW and the 88 HR 5er. See post # 5 this thread. The trip consisted of many miles of frost heaves. I had an axle and bearing failure on the 5er on the return trip.



The intend and design of the trailer was for weekend use, which was all I had used it for prior to our Alaska trip. I had the trailer for 7 years and never had a problem with it until the Alaska trip. The running gear was simply too light for the riggers of the Alaskan Highway. A Snowbirding use 5th wheel would have been the best choice for that trip, which we now have.



The Alaskan Highway was much improved on our last trip in 06 with our 05 Dodge and our, then, Lance camper.



george

 

[HBarlow]

HB, in your opening post you called this FR RV a "POS". :-{} Are you talking out of both sides of your mouth?

Cumminz,

This may be a little hard for you to grasp so pay careful attention as you read it. If you still don't understand after you read it a few times pm me and I'll try to explain it to you in simpler terms.

The purpose of my opening post and subsequent posts as well as the basic purpose of the TDR website and other similar websites is to share information and opinions about a product.

If a product is a pos, and the trailer I described certainly is, that is information that a prospective buyer should have. Have you ever heard of Consumer Reports magazine and website? They test and publish the facts and their opinion about thousands of products.

I discussed the trailer, not the owner or his knowledge of RVS or his general intelligence. I did not mention you or any other member who owns a Forest River trailer so I did not offend or insult you or anyone else.

If you choose to personally identify with the trailer I described and defend it, that is your choice and your problem.

Withholding negative information about bad products to avoid embarrassing someone who bought one would be doing a disservice to other members who are shopping for a trailer.

Facts are facts. Even if you don't want negative information written about Forest River products the facts are still facts.

You apparently don't like what I post but Grizzly's RV buyer's guide usually has opinions and ratings similar to my own. Would you like that editor to quit writing and selling his books?

 

[SierraRam]

You know HB I must say I agree totally. This is an open forum and there is nothing better that sharing experiences.

 

[CUMMINZ]

I have read from the publication many times and I'll eat the book if you can show me where they call anything a "POS" They use more non abrasive words. And I believe you have called my DayDreamer a "POS" and how do you do that and form an opinion without seeing my rig. Negative info written down about FR is fine and I don't mind that but some of the terms you use are over the edge.

 

[AClayton]

The bitterness of poor quality stays evident long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten. Most manufacturer's..... whether RV, water heater, home builders, toys or whatever... . sell a good, better and best model to choose from to give buyer's options based on budget, useage and winter weather camping, among other things. I could not justify purchasing the 'best' RV with my present budget. I feel my knowledge of RV's and the vast aftermarket support we have more than makes up for my purchase of my Raptor... . which could be dubbed 'better' and no means the 'best' but certainly not 'the worst'.

I think Keystone could use a little help with fit and finish on my rig but I got what I paid for. I have upgraded things with the running gear and interior appliances and did the work myself. I paid a fair price for my rig and upgraded to suit my needs but still saved a lot of money over purchasing a rig that had all of my upgrades included. Some of us do not know how to do these things due to age or just inability or maybe not having the time.



This is why a manufacturer should not be condemned based on its entry level models or even mid-grade models. There is an RV built for everyone's budget and that person needs to make an informed decision. If that person asks for said advice and it is given objectively on here... ..... that is great. If advice was given and you were strongly encouraged not to buy that model, at least you can say you were informed- warned!

Just don't come back and cry when your rig falls apart!!!





Alan

 

[HBarlow]

Alan,

Your first paragraph started out objectively making sense but then descended into rationalization of your purchase. Your second paragraph was purely defense of the product you purchased. That's fine, you can write whatever you wish. Readers interested in an RV will read and decide as they wish.

You may label my comments "condemning the manufacturer" if you wish but a careful reading of this entire thread will find no evidence that I did that. I will, however, continue to write my opinions here.

I would NOT purchase any product manufactured by Keystone, Forest River, or Thor, parent company of several RV labels or any product built on a Lippert frame or using ChiComm running gear.

Likewise I would not purchase any NuWa "HitchHiker" product, the brand I own, built on a Lippert frame using cheap ChiComm components. In model years 2006 through 2008 many, perhaps not all, HitchHiker II, HitchHiker LS, and "three digit" models of HitchHiker Discover America fifth wheels were built on Lippert frames not the high quality Young's frames NuWa "HitchHiker" had used for many years and now has returned to. The Lippert frame issue was one of the main factors I used in selecting my '07 32LKTG model which was built on a fine powder coated Youngs Welding frame.