A twist on Dieselgate aka The VW disaster.

[Wayne M.]

Found this interesting opinion about how the US will pursue the VW thing.

http://ericpetersautos.com/2016/07/20/epa-irs-business/

 

[JR]

They lied and cheated plain and simple. That's less than admirable in my book. I'm no tree hugger but clean air should be a priority to everyone.

The author notes that VW was the only game in town as far as diesel powered cars, but fails to mention why. It took GM several years of R&D to legitimately bring the Cruz to production. Mazda is still trying to bring the Sky active up to snuff and at a competitive price point. I love our TDI but it's hard to justify what they did no matter how you spin it.

 

[BarryG]

While I feel many of his points are valid I do have to agree with JR they flat out cheated and lied no way around it. NOT COOL. It is not like they didn't know, were caught by surprise, didn't adhere to rules that didn't exist, they engineered the cheat. Also as JR stated I am no tree hugger either but clean air is important to me whether due to VW or any other cause.

I am one of the affected owners, I have a 2015 Golf TDI. I can say that it is an awesome car. I routinely get 45mpg on my weekly driving and have gotten over 50 on highway trips. It has plenty of power and torque. It is comfortable and pretty quiet. I felt I got quite a bit of car for the money. I can say that it is one of the best cars I have ever owned granted I have only owned it for 2 years and 40k miles but so far it has been excellent. Had they not been caught I would happily be driving it until the wheels fell off. And if I didn't live in a smog testing area I might very well keep it. However I do live in a testing area and as such am not so sure I want to test their fix if they find one that is approved. The main reason I bought the vehicle was the mileage and what I thought was value which I feel it delivered. So I am sadly going to be part of the buy back however the silver lining for me is that my 2001 CTD with 350k on it and is showing its age is very likely going to go away and be replaced with a new one which is really only possible due to the buyback. Once paid for in a couple years I will then be in the market for another commuter car and if VW has what I am looking for they may have a sale time will tell on that.

 

[JR]

It really is too bad the TDI era has come to an end. My wife's 01 has been a very good commuter car and would have liked to replace it with a newer model. Doesn't look like that's gonna be possible anymore.

 

[RustyJC]

There's no magic in the laws of thermodynamics or chemistry. This has been coming for a long time. VW (including Audi) has had the automotive diesel marketplace to themselves because no one else could match their fuel economy and performance numbers while still (supposedly) achieving the government-mandated emissions levels. How was that possible? Now we know - because they cheated, pure and simple.

Rusty

 

[Wayne M.]

I think you all are missing the point. VW wasn't playing by the "narrative" set forth by our "free" country, and they will be forced to subsidize those who are playing by the script.
What this article makes me wonder, is weather this whole sad thing would have ever happened if there were a different administration at the helm.
You all have to agree that the law, how it is, and where it's going IS rediculous and by design, unattainable.
VW knew it. Gambled and failed. So sad.

 

[JR]

All one has to do to question the EPA's intentions is look across the pond. Until VERY recently Europe has promoted diesel cars to the extent of subsidization. Where did it get them? Paris is looking to BAN diesels in the city limits in the near future.

http://www.mintpressnews.com/london-has-already-exceeded-its-pollution-limits-for-2016/212771/

I agree the current administration has f*$%d alot of things up, but clean air ain't one of em.

 

[JR]

Wayne, you seem like a very conservative man with your head and heart in the right spot. But I'm a little confused at your comment, " You all have to agree that the law, how it is, and where it's going IS rediculous and by design, unattainable. "

If it's unattainable, how is Cummins making the grade? Or Ford, Isuzu (Dmax), Paccar, Detroit, Cat, etc etc? Its certainly attainable, and without a doubt for the benefit of our future generations.

 

[Motorhead]

I am one of the affected owners too. I have been around VW's since 1955 when my Dad bought a used 1954 bug from a friend of his. That was when people would look at it and say, "They will never sell here". Fast forward to around 1965, I got a job at an independent VW and Porsche shop. !981, I bought a NEW 1980 VW Dasher Diesel wagon with a whopping 48 horse power. Drove the doors off of that car for 19 years and sold it with well over 225,000 miles on it. That car NEVER let me down. It got sold in late 2000 when I bought my first Dodge/Cummins powered. Fast forward to October 2012, My wife and my 35th anniversary and I bought her a new 2012 Jetta TDI wagon. Loved it until I had re-gen issues and then the cheating scandal.
VW was always a simple and honest company. Why in the hell they needed to cheat is beyond me when as others posted that many other manufacturers are LEGALLY marketing diesels. VW fraudulently marketed the car. Mine is sitting in the back yard, on a NON op until VW buys the P.O.S. back. I went to the VW dealership which is also a Ford dealer too and spent the $500 parts or service only credit card and bought $500 dollars worth of quality 15/40 oil for my Dodge.

 

[seafish]

I bought a NEW 1980 VW Dasher Diesel wagon with a whopping 48 horse power. Drove the doors off of that car for 19 years and sold it with well over 225,000 miles on it. That car NEVER let me down. It got sold in late 2000 when I bought my first Dodge/Cummins powered. Fast forward to October 2012, My wife and my 35th anniversary and I bought her a new 2012 Jetta TDI wagon.

Shoulda bought one of those diesel Rabbit pick-ups instead of the Cummins...JK/LOL


In terms of VW cheating and lying to get the job done, it ALMOST makes me smile and think of Clinton squirming on the stand ..." it depends on the definiton of the word IS".
In other words, the cars were required to pass the diesel smog TEST in order to qualify, and they did just that!!!


We have a 2013 Sportwagen Tdi for my wife. We both love the car ALOT. As long as the smog fix does NOT terribly effect performance or mpg and longevity, we will keep it. Need to learn more first on what the fix maybe beofe we decide. Meantime it drives GREAT!!

I used thier "goodwill" money to buy a set of oem 16" wheels...the 17" wheels and low profile tires just do NOT cut it and the LOUSY roads we drive...end up ruining at least one every other year do to potholes....and aftermarket wheels are NOT the same quality forgings. If We end up turing in the car, I'll put the 17" ones back on and sell the 16" ones to someone with a gasser.

One more thing I am trying to figure out. IF we do decide to keep the car, I am trying to determine if its resale value will go up or down. I am thinking that it will go UP, perhaps substantially, as long as the smog fix does not TERRIBLY effect performance/longevity. There will be MANY less of them around and probably some enthusiasts who want to keep driving them. Also, there should be plenty of spare parts, depending of course what VW decides to do with the returned inventory.

So my question is, what do you guys think about that...ie spare parts availability and resale value in the future??

 

[Wayne M.]

Wayne, you seem like a very conservative man with your head and heart in the right spot. But I'm a little confused at your comment, " You all have to agree that the law, how it is, and where it's going IS rediculous and by design, unattainable. "

If it's unattainable, how is Cummins making the grade? Or Ford, Isuzu (Dmax), Paccar, Detroit, Cat, etc etc? Its certainly attainable, and without a doubt for the benefit of our future generations.

JR, you cannot compare diesel emission regs for above/ below 8500~10000 GVW. Heavy truck, and non road emissions regs are totally different beyond that. ODBII just came on the scene for class 8 trucks in 2014, for example. At the moment, NYS still does a smoke test for heavy, and there's no emission test at all for the light duty below 8500. HD Green House Gas regs have just come about as well, and will be ramping up incredibly, exponentially in the coming years. The plan will indeed be even further unobtainable, and the proof will be in ridiculous tactics that have already begun such as hybridized assists, auto stop/ start, and the continued efforts to employ "bridge formulas" to plasticize and cut tare weights.
Indeed it's a rough road ahead. The Governments, led by threats of things that MIGHT happen, just continues to wave its demanding wand without any regard for technology progress.
I'll repeat that It's been obvious since 2008 that the US does not want light diesels on the road. VW gambled and lost. I do appreciate that, IMHO, they will choose to stop production than build less satisfying and performing vehicles. They just wanted to make great cars. The proof is in the commentary.

I look around, and despite our diligent efforts to be responsible in our parts, there are forest fires, oil field fires and other enviro disasters like the third world industries (man made and accidental) that constantly unravel what we've done in a jiffy. Let them keep tightening the screws while hollywood bozos like DiCrapio makes their case to shame us as he flies around on his very own Boeing and acting quite opulent.
I still feel VW was a victim and example of the mega machine, and plenty of other vehicles can be found guilty as well if analyzed deep enough.

God help us if Trump don't succeed to restore some basic common sense and stop the enviro madness!

 

[Motorhead]

seafish....Your question was mine, What kind of a fix are they going to come up with? I didn't want to get stuck with an expensive retrofit that fails later and I have to pay to replace it. My 2012 only has 19,600 miles on it. We never got the fuel mileage that the car was supposed to get. Give me $25,600 and you can have mine. Bright red, black interior, NO sunroof, DSG.
I feel very fortunate to have my 2007, 5.9 6 speed. NO worries about half the crap the newer ones have.

 

[petersonj]

So my question is, what do you guys think about that...ie spare parts availability and resale value in the future??

My wife and I are in a similar situation as you. We purchased a used 2014 Passat SEL TDI (28,000 miles at a very reasonable price) about a year ago and we also really like the car. The engine requires DEF additive so I think that there will only be software changes by VW to re-certify the car for emissions. Hopefully the software change won't reduce engine performance and fuel economy significantly.

At this point we are planning to keep the car and drive it for a long time. You raise a good point about parts availability. I am not so much concerned about resale price as we intend to drive the heck out of it.

Previous to the Passat TDI my wife drove a 2006 New Beetle TDI (purchased used in 2011 with 60,000 miles) and drove it for another 60,000 miles until late 2015, which is when we purchased the Passat. The New Beetle was powerful, reliable, and fun to drive.

- John

 

[seafish]

My wife and I are in a similar situation as you. We purchased a used 2014 Passat SEL TDI (28,000 miles at a very reasonable price) about a year ago and we also really like the car. The engine requires DEF additive so I think that there will only be software changes by VW to re-certify the car for emissions. Hopefully the software change won't reduce engine performance and fuel economy significantly.
- John

Interesting...I didn't realize that they added DEF the very next model year from ours. From what I hear, yours might well be a relatively easy software fix....ours may or may not even be able to be fixed woth both hardware and software...I wonder if they will let us trade in for a 2014 model that they buy back, if they can;t fix the earlier ones with hardware. I would seriously think about it, again depending on how the software effects performance. But we all know how software can be tuned....LOL.

 

[Motorhead]

Seafish, The Passat had DEF in 2013 too. I don't know why it wasn't put in the Jetta and any other diesel TDI's. I think that the DEF system was more expensive compared to the DPF and regen systems on our Jettas.

 

[JR]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't tier IV align all diesel engines? I thought they are regulated by g/bhp regardless of size.

I know my cousins got a new 300 hp Deere and a 250ish hp Case on the farm, both full SCR rigs that require DEF.

 

[Wayne M.]

JR, here's your light/ medium duty final rule expiring real soon.
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2010-05-07/pdf/2010-8159.pdf

Here's your heavy on road final rule, expiring soon also.
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2011-09-15/pdf/2011-20740.pdf

These are tier 3. I think tier 4 is off road only at this point.
I think they are separate regs.

The next tier coming down the pike, from what I hear will be brutal. They're holding on now, but we'll see how they do to hold onto vehicles performing as we know it. They want to apply car efficiency principals to heavy trucks. How does this relate to the topic? This is such a quagmire, that VW gave it a shot because they wouldn't just stand down like Cat did years ago- they understood that this is ridiculous.

 

[Motorhead]

The regulations today on ANY diesel today are to me a bit much. They are no longer the black smoke belching engines like they were just 20 years ago. When I owned the 1980 VW Dasher diesel wagon, it left a real smoke cloud behind it. Take it into the mountain elevation, it just about equaled a Russian Trabant. The EPA or whoever has imposed all of these regulations have strangled an efficient mode of power. After a few modifications on my Dasher which included putting in a 5 speed trans replacing the lower geared 4 speed, I could run to Los Angles and back, 70 + mph and get 44 mpg with a non turbo engine. Even the new model small Kubota tractors have to have a DPF trap and re-gen capabilities.

 

[mwilson]

JR, here's your light/ medium duty final rule expiring real soon.
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2010-05-07/pdf/2010-8159.pdf

Here's your heavy on road final rule, expiring soon also.
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2011-09-15/pdf/2011-20740.pdf

These are tier 3. I think tier 4 is off road only at this point.
I think they are separate regs.

The next tier coming down the pike, from what I hear will be brutal. They're holding on now, but we'll see how they do to hold onto vehicles performing as we know it. They want to apply car efficiency principals to heavy trucks. How does this relate to the topic? This is such a quagmire, that VW gave it a shot because they wouldn't just stand down like Cat did years ago- they understood that this is ridiculous.

It is completely ridiculous....

These electronic laden big trucks are coming out of warranty and people are finding out just how much it costs to maintain these systems. Trades are coming in with depleted DPF cartridges and other issues. Thousands of dollars in repeat repairs to keep the instrument cluster from being lit up like a Christmas Tree.

The tail pipes are clean now, what more do they want......

And YOU, Mr. Consumer will bear the brunt of this in purchasing any product that is shipped by truck.....


It is just beginning....

 

[Motorhead]

I have been seeing UPS feeder tractors that are either CNG or LNG powered.