ABS is dangerous on icy roads

[RustyJC]

So, until you know everything, stop with the freaking comments people.

Just a suggestion. If you don't want comments, perhaps posting on an Internet forum isn't the best thing to do.



Rusty

 

[chunter]

So does anyone know how to disable the ABS system on a Gen3 in such a way that it can be enabled/disabled at will?



Thanks,

C. D. Hunter

 

[CJEliassen]

I guess I needed to spell it out to people like you Rusty. "Know it all" and "I'm superior" comments do nothing to help the thread. I posted on here to see if I would get similar responses, and I did. Those are the people who have actually had similar experiences. Whereas the other comments are from people who think they know it all and can't keep their baseless opinions to themselves don't add anything intelligent to the discussion.

 

[RustyJC]

I guess I needed to spell it out to people like you Rusty.

Yeah, it's tough being severely mentally handicapped and totally devoid of perception. Thank you for your kind understanding.



Now, if you'll pardon me, I've gotta go catch the short school bus home! :{



Rusty

 

[lcoblentz]

In an attempt to salvage some usefulness out of this topic ---



CJEliassen, what exactly are you looking for? Do you merely want replies that confirm your thoughts and opinions? Or are you willing to listen to input from others and openly evaluate these opinions? Perhaps ABS is not the big "evil" some think.



My opinion lies somewhere in the middle. This is my second CTD with 4 wheel ABS, and I have to say I like it *most* of the time. I have found that on extremely slick (read ice) conditions, coupled with a crown in the road or a hill, there can be some not so good results. However, those same conditions usually mean problems without ABS. I have learned to deal with the shortcomings of the present technology, and exercise *extreme* care under certain conditions.



I'm not saying ABS is great and wonderful, but I'm also not going to say it's awful. It's different, and requires different techniques. Under the most frequent road conditions, *I* believe it to be superior. Under extremely poor conditions, it's a wash.



There's my *opinion* and I hope you don't feel the need to spell anything out for me (just kiddin' ya).



Now, let's all get along and play nice together. Oo.

 

[CJEliassen]

lco,



I am looking for post like yours. I am just sick of the people that all they can say is "you must be a crappy driver" and have no real input.



I came close to totalling my truck from no fault of my own. So, when people can only make sly comments without knowing all the facts, it really peeves me.

 

[lcoblentz]

CJ,



The vast majority of folks on here mean well. Some are more, ummm, blunt than others, but they all bring good things to the table. Don't take stuff too personal. I seriously doubt anyone is questioning your morals or character



Sometimes the written word leaves a bit to be desired. You don't get the voice inflections and/or "body language" that you would talking to someone.



It's all good! Hope you have a great holiday season... ...



Larry

 

[BHolm]

Well..... at the risk of being flamed, I am jumping in anyway



It isn't the ABS system that is the problem. We need to look at how ABS works first. I frankly don't think that those advocating shutting it off really have a grasp on what is going on with the system. ABS doesn't intervene until tire traction is severly limited. The alternative to the ABS pulsing the brakes is one or more tires locked and sliding. On ice, a locked, sliding tire is sure as heck not going to stop you sooner than allowing ABS to work. The concept is that if the tire is still rolling you maintain some ability to STEER away from the potnetial accident. It is intended to keep you from losing directional control. FACT; If you have gotten into ABS braking, you have used up your tires traction. That is driver error pure and simple. ABS or not, you are overdriving for the conditions. The ABS pulsing is NOT what is making it hard to stop, it is a lack of traction.



I think that proper tire choice makes a HUGE difference here. If you can increase the threshold of traction, you run a lower risk of invoking the ABS system. I have lived in snowy climates all my life. Two days after buying my '05 it was fitted with a new set of BFG AT's. These tires are somewhat unique in that they are rated as a snow tire, just like the dedicated snow tires. They have the "mountain with a snowflake in it" symbol molded into the sidewall. So I got a better looking tire because I went with 285's, they carry the same load with a little less pressure for a better ride, they are durable AT's so I can go into the sticks with it, and they are rated like a dedicated snow tire. My experience with these in the past, on several different vehicles is that they work great!



I have raced Porsches with and without ABS. I use ABS on the track the same way I do on the street. I use it as a gauge of where I am at as far as traction. On heavy braking I push it right to ABS engagement and back off just slightly, which is a little trickier in a Dodge truck than a Porsche but... . same idea. Stuffing the pedal in panic is the worst, but most common reaction. If you didn't have ABS and you did this on ice, you stand a very good chance of sliding into what is in front of you but, worse yet, you lose all directional control. The truck stands a very good chance of spinning w/o ABS, who knows what you will hit then. If you have over-driven your traction, you are better off hitting what is in front of you straight on in almost all cases. Let the crush zones and airbags work. With no ABS you subject yourself to the chance of hitting a pole, another vehicle, or whatever sideways with your door. How would you prefer?



Point is, ABS is nothing but a good thing. There are a couple situations where an ABS defeat "might" help a very experienced driver (not just one who has been driving a long time, one with some training). In deep snow and on soft gravel. In those cases a wedge builds up in front of a locked tire stopping you more quickly. There is NO WAY you can brake better than the ABS, I don't care what you "think".



My advice, if anyone cares Fit the best tires you can, drive accordingly for the conditions.

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

BHolm - that truly depends on the quality of the system in question. I can't speak to the Dodge setup because I haven't driven/tested one. But on my Sonoma I can tell you that I could stop faster every time with ABS than without and it didn't matter what the conditions were. That system was very slow in reacting. If you a wheel locked the brakes would release completely and it would take about . 5-1 second to reapply. The biggest pain for me was coming to a stop with an unloaded truck if there were ripples/bumps in the road a tire would go airborn and "lock" because it wasn't in full contact with the road. Normally (or with the ABS off) that tire would simply chirp when it contacted the ground and start rolling again. The way that ABS system worked it would release the brakes (all of em) and you were coasting. It was a 1 channel system. If any of the 4 tires locked it released all of the brakes. I could easily react to a locking tire faster than that system did. Not all ABS systems are created equally.

 

[BHolm]

Steve, You are correct, they are not all created equal. GM ran on the cheap for years with poor ABS systems. The third gen Dodge system is a three channel, which happens to be the most appropriate for a pick-up truck. There is no way you can beat it with your foot, no way.



After going back and reading the whole thread... whew! I have a little better feel for the incident in question. Wrong tires is the most likely culprit. Speed wasn't the issue, though most times it is. I think the key is, that in that situation you wouldn't have stopped without the ABS either and the boner is, you would have gone sideways in a heartbeat. Be thankful, it is a good system in this case. Just because it didn't "seem" to work smoothly doesn't mean that the system is faulty or poorly designed. It is a recent trick to get ABS to work period with 4wd. The locked connection front to rear is definately going to cause some wind-up.



I don't see any reasson to blame the driver, sometimes things happen, that is the joy of living in a snowy climate



Just to re-note, the BFG AT in 285/70-17 is winter rated. I ran 285 ATs on my Chev CC LB before this and had EXCELLENT results in several nasty Colorado snow storms last year.

 

[Pawpaw]

Up until a couple of months ago, I had NEVER hit another vehicle in my life. I started driving (on the farm) when I was about 8 years old. I'm 51 now, so I've had a fair amount of experience. Serving in the USAF for 22 years afforded me the opportunity to drive lots of different vehicles on probably every road condition you can imagine.

I was on a highway with an almost new asphault surface. There had been a light rain for a while, but not enough to wash off the road surface. My truck was unloaded except for my wife and two grandkids.

With the rain, I was driving well below the speed limit. Besides, we were in no hurry - returning home from a family outing. As we approached a traffic light, I began slowing down early... always mindful this is a 7,000 lb truck. All was well at this point.

As I approached the stopped vehicles, the ABS started doing it's thing. That was a bit unnerving, but no big deal. Since I had plenty of time, I let completely off the brake, then began gradually applying them again, even more gently.

The ABS kicked in again and I was now out of time and room. We weren't doing more than 5 MPH when I bumped the F-150 in front of me.

With an empty pickup, I expect the rear tires to slide (or attempt to) long before the front tires. Such is the nature of a vehicle that is heavy in the front and light in the rear. In this case, I lost almost all braking suddenly. I feel certain that the front tires still had good traction, but the ABS prevented me from using it.

As I understand it, there is an ABS sensor in the differential housing. Is there another one for the front wheels? If not, then I think that's the problem.

Just my experience... flame away.

Bob

 

[RustyJC]

As I understand it, there is an ABS sensor in the differential housing. Is there another one for the front wheels?

Bob,



If you look around the area of the brake discs, you should find a tone wheel (toothed wheel) and sensor for each front wheel. The fact that the ABS was working on the rear wheels should not affect the front brake effectiveness in a 3-channel ABS system. The rear wheels are on one channel, and each front wheel has its own channel.



Rusty

 

[CJEliassen]

Bholm,



I suggest you goto the link I provided. ABS increases the stopping distance on snow, gravel, sand, and other lose surfaces. I would stop much quicker without the ABS on the snow over a dirt road. Also, the ABS system on the new trucks does not let you regain rolling friction which is even better than ABS. ABS is locked up half the time, whereas rolling friction provides resistance the whole time. You must release the brake and about a second after you release, the ABS turns off. On my old truck, I could release the ABS simply by backing off on the brake presure a little. It was a rather nice because it let me know when any of the wheels were locking up and allowed me to maintain a constant rolling friction.

 

[BHolm]

CJ, Suggest away buddy, but if you read the first post I put up, I acknowledged the fact that on snow or gravel ABS can lengthen stopping distances.



Now, If I had read that you were on snow covered gravel, which I am pretty sure you didn't write, just that you were on snow over ice, I would agree that in that rare circumstance, you are correct.



You know CJ, if you didn't come of as so antognonistic, somebody might have something to help you. Instead this is a rag session and you want to take eveybody on. I guess I just don't get it. I also think it is a huge cop out to just blame it on this "system" news flash... . ABS has been used around the world for three decades now! Its not the ABS!



The fact remains that in 99% of situations there is no way you can beat the ABS. That is why it is there. If you are a "big man", and smarter than me, everybody else, and the ABS computer, just unhook the stinking system and quit complaining :-{}



On the "rolling friction" argument. You have to have traction to take advantage of that. The ABS would not activate if there was not a wheel slippage event to trigger it. The ABS activated because you didn't have enough traction, or you were too heavy on the pedal, same thing. You make it sound like the ABS "did" something on its own, or without provocation, good luck getting anybody to buy that bag of goods. It is a machine, it really isn't out to get you... honest.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"ABS or Not, there is no excuse, none, for rear ending another vehicle or blowing a Stop Sign, only stupidity is to blame, not your brakes. Idiots who can't control themselves or their vehicles are why we have ABS today. "



YET another "know it all"statement!



I, personally, on my '91 rear-only ABS truck nearly rearended stopped drivers ahead of me several times at stopsigns in absolutely normal routine situations when road gravel or the wavy asphalt Steve mentioned above caused the rear wheel(s) to momentarily lose contact with the road surface, and then caused me to IMMEDIATELY lose total rear brakes on the truck! The front brakes were not up to the task of stopping the truck by themselves even at that low speed in the remaining distance, and what SHOULD have been a perfectly routine and normal stop instantly became a crisis situation!



And THOSE instances were in DRY pavement!



If YOUR ABS works well for you, and you are satisfied, GREAT! But DON'T presume that ALL trucks operate the same as yours, or that what suits YOU must also suit the REST of us - OR that if WE are unhappy with ABS, there's something wrong with us or our driving skills - YOU haven't BEEN in our trucks, or the situations discussed - so you have no way of knowing!



In my situation, I disabled my rear ABS - and the truck was FAR more reliable and predictable in ALL driving situations I was involved in the rest of the time I owned it!



*I* wouldn't presume to tell others they should disable their ABS, because I'm not familiar with their trucks - so don't YOU presume to tell ME that if my ABS functions poorly, *I* or my driving skills must be at fault!

 

[CJEliassen]

Bholm,



I see you are another know it all. And you obviously did not read the link I posted because what you said made no sense at all. Read the post, become educated, and make an intelligent post.



I didn't start the arguement, but I am going to shove it in your face when you tell me I am wrong when in fact I have proof that you are wrong. So, if you want a nice pleasant response, don't act like a know it all and shove it in someones face, when you don't the what you are talking about in the first place.



And, on the rolling friction arguement. When you have rolling friction, you have more braking ability than with the ABS engaged. In the old systems when you let up slightly on the pedal with the ABS engaged, the ABS disengaged and the wheel started to roll again giving you rolling friction. The new system keeps the ABS engaged until you take you foot off the pedal and then about a second after that it disengages. I said this in previous post, but I guess you didn't read these ones either.

 

[fox]

In my earlier reply about my 2000 2500 4X2 dodge, Anyone reading this topic who could drive this truck would quickly take my side. And that is that ABS as we know it lacks a lot.

It may be good in some trucks, but this one was dangerous. Dry road, wet road, driving with a lot of space in front, it didn't matter.

Dealer said it was working correctly.

May have been different in that truck if it was loaded.

It had nothing to do with driver skill.

When a fool runs a light/stop sign, you have to get stopped to avoid damage. This truck could not do it.

It would simply relax the brakes and slowly reapply them. In the mean time the impact was done.

My 2002 4X4 seems to disengage the 4W ABS when in 4X4.

The idea of computerized braking may eventually be a good thing. But first they must get it figured out.

This one must have been using a commodor computer running at 4 hz.

 

[PRush]

Abs

I would like to know if anyone has experience with the ABS system and T-Rex Engineering Suspensions (I forget Kent's new company name) . Would the T-Rex setup help eliminate the ABS problems on washboard roads etc. ?

 

[Ol'TrailDog]

Well CJ actually I don't know everything, but thanks none the less. Just between you and me, I acknowledged that a number of post ago. However, it is plumb difficult not to get into a pi$$ing match with someone who is blessed with an onery attitude like yours.



However, because I'm a nice guy, I would be willing to give you a few pointers to help you get down the hill. Was that 9000 feet altitude or attitude? :-{}

CJ pontificated:

So, until you know everything, stop with the freaking comments people.

Just figured out what the CJ stands for - Christ Jesus - himself right in our very midst.



On the substantive side:



I took the truck on a slick road run today and set the airs a number of times just for the experimentation. I could stop the rig with threshold braking just fine. I am willing to admit I am not to fond of the length of the ABS "cycle" when you set the airs and leave them on. There does seem to be room for improvement. Seems to last longer than in my 02. So, is there a way to short the ABS "cycle", i. e. make it pulse quicker? Or IS there a way to deactivate, or better yet toggle, ABS for various conditions. I'm not convinced I would do it, but it is what this thread is about.



PRush, I wouldn't think KORE (T-Rex) would help. However, It does bring to mind an emergency braking experience someone had in the Baja - Greg Boardman, I think - perhaps he or Kent could give a viewpoint from the sandy and washboard side.

 

[DIESELMAN]

As a matter of fact, I do know it all... .

As a matter of Fact, ABS DOES increase stopping distance.

As a matter of Fact, ABS was NEVER intended to reduce stopping distance

As a matter of Fact, ABS is an AID to maintain steering and directional control during Panic Braking

As a matter of Fact, If your ABS activates, you are not in TOTAL control of your vehicle under current conditions.

As a matter of Fact, if you strike a vehicle that hasn''t pulled into your direct path, you arre NOT in control of your vehicle, and you are at fault, failure to control your vehicle so as to avoid an accident, the law in 50 states. If the conditions are such that you may go skittering through a stop, slow down sooner.

As a matter of Fact, ABS does NOT work for squat in a Dodge 4X4 Ram, we all agree here, and anything over 5-7 mph offroad and down hill is asking for trouble.

As a matter of Fact, the Dodge ABS does get better, but has a long way to go.

As a matter of Fact, Most People Drive in 4WD on icy roads when they should be in 2WD, and this limits the effectiveness of ABS.

As a Matter of Fact, I can stop perfectly straight on icy snow covered roads, in 2WD, BUT NOT 4WD, the ABS triggers, and I don't pump the brakes, this is what ABS is for, NOT reducing stopping distance.

As for those older ABS rear drum trucks, try adjusting the rear brakes, it makes a world of difference, the self adjusters suck on those.