Ace of Spades.... another bedtime story? (Part 1)

[JohnMcIntyre]

Originally posted by 2boke2smoke

or you'd be speaking german john ...

Actually... I already do, but not for that reason!



JMc

 

[Rman]

Re: Public office?

Originally posted by JohnMcIntyre





Fatcat - Have you ever considered the possibility of running for public office? You might surprise yourself and your constituents with your line of thinking..... !



JMc

So you're saying you have a problem with the United States holding it's own best interests in mind? It's a fundamental teaching in this country in just about every aspect I can think of. The very grounds our military war colleges our founded from. Roosevelt (Teddy) had great vision for this country and had a large part in our "interests" that you seem to have a problem with.



If you choose to disagree with the interests, well good luck to ya then, because it's something the entire basis for our country was founded upon. I think FATCAT's quote was right on the money.

 

[loncray]

You do realize that Japan was just acting in their best interests when they attacked Pearl Harbor? Look at it from the Japanese point of view - Roosevelt (Franklin) might've threatened the Japanese Navy, and he certainly had WMD's (battleships). He'd already had secret (and possibly illegal) negotiations with Japan's foe the British. Just as Germany was acting in their best interests when they attacked Poland and France.

 

[Rman]

very correct loncray, the world is not a perfect place. A nation must do what it deems necessary to further itself and its allies. I never insinuated that Japan or Germany acted "wrong" so to speak. I find it rather pompous to point FATCAT out for having beliefs that happen to coincide with the beliefs our country was founded upon. It is our best interest that has made what this nation is today... whether or not one construes that as good or bad is of there own prerogative.

 

[Rman]

Loncray. that post is getting to me... what made you bring up WWII, Japan and the British? I never even made a remote inclusion of any of that. Though I guess in a way one could run with "our best interests" and tie that to hell just about everything this country has ever done. Just curious.



I bet you just wanted to highjack the thread and argue about history (ok not argue, articulately debate)! I just got finished reading a good book about the russian revolution, that stuff is fresh on my mind.

 

[loncray]

Actually, I was trying to bring the thread back to it's origins - a criticism of President Bush's policies in premptively attacking Iraq. Re-read the first post. We attacked Iraq the same as Japan attacked us, but because "it's in our best interests" it's okay? We had WMD's (the US Navy) that threatened Japanese interests in the Pacific, so they attacked us. Those who forget history are destined to repeat it.

 

[loncray]

Oh, and Hitler and the British had already entered the thread several posts up, from Merryman I believe. Wasn't me who put them in!

 

[Rman]

I read it as grossly exaggerated summations of very complex issues and a very poor example of being a father. But Now that I re-read some of it I can see the topic at hand. I never took political allegiance just merely looking at it objectively. Whether you like the move or not moving into Iraq was in our best interests... however peraps more in the best interests of the president, but that is a moral issue as well as a national interest issue. Again I didn't take sides. I still stand behind my republican guard, though i am skeptical of the current administration.

 

[Sled Puller]

Originally posted by loncray

Actually, We attacked Iraq the same as Japan attacked us,

Hhhhmmm... does that mean we attacked France on D-day?



We liberated Iraq.



Japan, and Germany were conquering nations, to take them over and steal their resources, and enslave their people. Sack, pillage, rape, steal, destroy.



Quite a bit different, from what we have been doing. You know, rebuilding schools, turning power on, feeding children, etc, etc.



Maybe not from a Liberals point of view, but in all reality, what we have done here lately is try to PREVENT history from repeating itself.



It is as basic as right and wrong. But I'm sure a judge will argue what right and wrong mean.

 

[me4osu]

I don't remember reading in my history books that Japan or Germany warned anyone that they were going to invade if certain conditions were not met. Our govt. gave numerous warnings to Saddamy before they invaded.

 

[loncray]

France was a legitimate liberation. And Germany's attacks on Poland and France were definitely aggressive attacks made on spurious excuses. (I feel Japan had more justification, at least in their own eyes). And that's precisely why I cite them - because a LOT of folks in this world see America's attack on Iraq as no different than Pearl Harbor. We made up excuses for the attack, we did it despite the rest of the world trying to talk us out of it, and we obliterated an army that hasn't been capable of standing up to us since 1991. Sure, we're rebuilding schools and such (when we're not getting blown up), but the Germans built roads and buildings in France and Poland too. The Japanese added facilities to Pacific Island nations, and the Argentines gave TV's to the Falkland Islanders. I could argue that we are indeed in Iraq to loot natural resources - without our Army there, we don't get Iraqi oil.

 

[loncray]

Warnings to what, give up WMD's he didn't have? Besides, we all know what a bad guy Saddam was - but there's other bad guys out there. Where's the attack on Saudi Arabia (home to most of the 9/11 terrorists)? Where's the attack on North Korea? We were going to invade Iraq no matter what Saddam did or said.

 

[2broke2smoke]

ion, john ... do you think the world was better off when saddam was the leader of Iraq, or now that he is in prison? no intellectual BS please ...

 

[loncray]

Iraq is certainly in worse shape - 3 major wars tend to do that to a nation. The world - I dunno - there were few terrorists in Iraq before, now there's plenty. The world used to respect the US, now it hates us and fears us. So you tell me?

 

[Sled Puller]

No matter how many times I read, hear, or see it, that point of view just blows my mind!!!!

:--)





Maybe we should ask the Iraqis if they are better off, instaed of us deciding from several thousand miles away?





More terrorists in Iraq? GOOD. Much easier to shoot them when they get together.



Iraq=Pearl Harbor?

Iraq=Pearl Harbor?



Just had to repeat it, I still can't believe I read that, no way.

Surely I didn't.

Did I?

 

[2broke2smoke]

didn't answer the question ... is the world better or worse without saddam in power ?



i feel the world is better off without saddam



i believe iraq is a good place for "plenty" of terrorists ... where our military can deal with them





God Bless our Armed Forces





i won't interrupt you gentlemen anymore

 

[merryman]

It is facinating at times to see how far past its maximum point of elasticity credulity can be stretched by the anti-Bush folks!!!



Vaughn

 

[Dfeland]

It is just my opinion but I believe that President Bush got elected by the grace of god. I just returned from the middle east and I can tell you that the whole world is a better place because of MY presidents actions. By the way am I the only one that saw the interview from the CIA guy on FOX that stated that a top general that was on the front line at the beginning of the war said that the Iraqi missle launchers WERE in fact loaded with BIO warheads... The iraqi's chose not to use them because they were afraid of what might happen to them... . Like the whole area being turned into a glass parking lot. It angers me to see people that do not count their blessings everyday for they do not understand that it all can be taken away in a split second. Millions of people have died for me to sit here and type this and I for one WILL NOT throw away their sacrifices. Oh and by the way if you happen to live in a foriegn country I forgive you and your ignorant way of thinking but will be glad to help you when the time comes.

 

[JohnMcIntyre]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing

Originally posted by 2boke2smoke

ion, john ... do you think the world was better off when saddam was the leader of Iraq, or now that he is in prison? no intellectual BS please ...

The political landscape in many parts of the world has shifted many times over the past 30 odd years and today is the result of a series of foriegn policy decisions and that is not intellectual BS. In answer to your question you forgot to mention (my preferred) option #3 - the death penalty - but even that would be too good for him IMHO.



It's one of life's great mysteries that George Snr. didn't finish the job the first time around in 1991 and George Jnr. has certainly made up for that. I for one am grateful for his resolve and also the sacrifices made by many people on our collective behalf, to at least try and make the world a better place.



Looking beyond the immediate future, I think you'll find a subtle change in foriegn policy emerging across the countries of the whole world, but unfortunately does not have the commitment or backing of a zero tolerance stance.



There is an upside to all this however! Mr. Gadaffi in Libya has certainly kept his head down these past couple of years and of course let's not forget the hot topic on the Saudia Arabian government's agenda - Effective immediately, they have banned the importation of teddy bears into their country.



The words "relative priorities" immediately come to mind

 

[DKayser]

Finish?

George Sr. didn`t "finish" because he followed the coalition`s directive. Run Saddam out of Kuwait. Had he "finished" the job, people would have been howling about his ignoring the U. N. `s mandate. Seems he was damned if he did, and damned if he didn`t. I do wish he`d told the U. N. to go !@#$ itself and let Stormin` Norman push on. Would have been simpler,cheaper, & less blood would have spilled. Saddam is out, good riddance. One down(Saddam), One to go (UBL)! DK.