2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission Advantages of a 2nd gen..........

[Firstgenfanantic]

Hello! I have been a TDR member for about a year now. My 1st diesel (currently my rig) is a 1993 generation 1. I have the non-lockup automatic that comes stock on these rigs. I have been relatively pleased with my 1st gen, but just recently it has let me down! I towed my 24ft 5th wheel trailer and the ol' gal just had a heck of a time pulling it!!! I was really shocked, I have accomplished most of all the mild upgrades... ... ... yet my rig just won't keep up with newer rigs on the road. It's really shamefull! :{ Anyway, at this point I'm thinking a 2nd gen would suit me better for RV towing and anything else I dish at it... ... ... (boat, firewood hauling, car trailer, etc). I am assuming that going from a 1st to 2nd gen Dodge is a huge leap in performance???? I absolutely love the 12 valve Cummins, but need something that will pull my 24ft trailer up steep grades, through mountain passes, and do 60mph on the freeway. Any advice would be much appreciated!

 

[HBarlow]

I never owned an early 12 valve or a Gen I Dodge Ram so don't have a basis for comparison.

My first one was an '01 HO/6 spd 3500. It was and is a great truck. It ran strong as delivered by the dealer and had a dealer-installed Jacobs Exhaust Brake installed before I took delivery. A few months after I bought it I attended my first TDR Rally and met Joe Donnelly. Joe gave a talk on the advantages of the Bosch RV 275 hp injectors and few if any disadvantages and I bought a set and paid Joe to install them. It REALLY ran strong with the injectors and continues to run strong to this day with 350,000 miles on the odometer. It has seen a lot of towing miles!

I think the '01 and '02 HO 6 speeds were among the best Dodge Rams ever offered. The platform was not as sophisticated as the third gen trucks and the engine was far noisier than the Gen III HPCR engines but they have character and run strong. They'll pull any trailer you care to tow.

 

[Bob4x4]

I have replaced more vp's on 02 HO trucks at low miles than any other single model... ... ... ...

In todays trucks(common rails) the vp's are cheap compared to the new injectors so do your due diligence.

All the 2nd gens make more HP and torque than the ve equiped trucks stock vs stock but the later trucks also weigh a bit more

 

[Grumpy John 4x4]

12 valve

Right on Bob 12 valves rule!

 

[budnate]

that 12V should pull just about anything you hook to it, that trailer should be no problem, only limitations is that trans with no O/D and your gearing, something is wrong with the motor or tune on it.

 

[SRath]

I think the best truck would be a combination. Sadly, Dodge just never quite got it all Right with one model. I have no use for a 2wd, so my opinions are based on 4x4 models:

Interior: The 1st gen lacks in the rear seating design and cannot quite compare in creature comfort to a 2nd gen overall, though I like my pickups to feel like a pickup; not a car!

Suspension: The winner, hands down, is the 1st gen with it's REAL Dana 60 front axle and front leaf springs. Look under any true H. D. truck (semi) and you will not find wimpy, unreliable, coil spring suspension. "Dodge Death Wobble" was a phrase not even coined until the 2nd gen came along. Leaf spring suspension is MUCH more reliable and MUCH cheaper and easier to maintain, lift, or modify. And anyone who says coils ride better has never had a good set of aftermarket leaf springs. They also should buy a car if comfort is so important and quit giving detroit more excuses to wussify American pickups.

Engine: 12 valve 2nd generation. Simple. Reliable. Powerful enough and easily enhanced. The Cummins by which all others are judged. "We don't need no stinkin' computer!"

Transmission: Manual all the way. Dodge never has built a decent automatic and never will. The 1st gen getrag sucks. The NV4500 is good , but has 5th gear issues. The all-time champ is the NV5600, and it is history. If you MUST have an automatic, an Allison is the only way to go.

Front axle: 1st gen all the way! Kingpins, tapered & serviceable wheel bearings, lockouts, and beefier inner shafts along with a much stronger housing make this "no contest". The 2nd gen has a pretender that shares only the ring and pinion of a TRUE dana 60. A huge leap backwards.

Rearend: The Dana 80 is all the beef you will ever need but needs a Detroit Locker option. Not found in 1st gens.

T-case: The 1st gen with the legendary cast-iron, gear-drive NP205 has no competition here. It remains the best ever offered and rightfully should have never been replaced.

Body: The 2nd gens are still my favorite with fairly decent styling and rust resistance, though the 1st gens have enough similarity to the classic Chevy to be appreciated. The front grill was something Dodge just never got right styling-wise on 1st gen trucks. Plain boring and ugly. The composite headlight design of the 2nd gen is pure crap. The 1st gen had MUCH better headlights. Give me glass halogen lights any dark night!

Misc. : The parking brake design on early 2nd gens is junk but easily modified and fixed permanently. All the other systems in my 2nd gen '96 have proven to be quite reliable once you find and fix the interior water leaks. Better diesel instrumentation should have been offered (pyro, boost, fuel pressure).

I think a 2nd gen x-cab, 4x4, 12-valve with 1st gen front suspension and a true dana 60 axle along with an NV5600 and an NP205 and lockered Dana 80 would have been the ultimate pickup.

We will never know.

Dodge continues to head in the wrong direction with rear coil springs and more computerized and composite crap... No wonder they are going belly up. If you buy a pickup these days, it is probably because you NEED one. The yuppie, build-me-a-car-that-looks-like-a-pickup generation is switching back to cars. Far too late to save real trucks from over-engineered/under-built expense and wussification, though.

Keep the Change.

 

[GAmes]

My first diesel was a 92 Dodge with an auto. Like yours it was a gutless wonder and I hated it so badly I nearly went into a Ford in 97. However, I'm puzzled about your non-lockup TC comment. I was under the impression the 93 was the first year with a locking TC. Anyway, I traded it for my current truck when it had 70k on the odometer and I have no plans to let this one go. I couldn't be happier with this one. I'm truly glad Ford couldn't offer me a 3. 5 rear in a duelly back then.

 

[Bob4x4]

Srath,I think you may be hanging on to the dark ages a lil too tightly.

The nv5600 is not as bullet proof as you seem to think,they have been failing. The 4500 I have been driving is much better shifting but again is not strong enough. I broke 3rd gear,never had any 5th gear issues but I don't pull very heavy. The nv271 in the 3rd gens is stronger and lighter than the 205 of yesteryear. I shreded mine behind a small block chevy at less the 100k miles . The new auto in the 6. 7 trucks is better than the Allison behind the duramax.

I have also experienced death wobble in leaf sprung Chevys and Dodges. The numbers are much worse on any of the linked front ends but the ride stock for stock can not be compared

 

[SRath]

Bob, I think you must be very limited in your experience with old iron. Anything mechanical can fail. Cheapening and lightening the materials and adding unreliable electronics just exacerbates the problem. Cheap (to manufacture, but costly to buy and maintain) and light is what new trucks and aluminum t-cases are all about. Not strength and durability.



Put an NV4500 next to an NV5600. There is nearly 300lbs difference in weight!! (200 vs. 500). That "weight" is beef. I have great admiration for the toughness of the NV4500, but the NV5600 was built specifically to overcome the weaknesses of the NV4500 behind Cummins diesels. That includes adding a gear to better compliment the powerband of the Cummins as well as handling heavier loads and higher power levels.



If the NV5600 isn't enough, you will need to move up to a Fuller or Eaton commercial truck transmission.



You don't see any serious 4x4 builders clammoring for NV271 t-cases, but the NP205 remains in high demand. If you "shredded" an NP205 behind a smallblock, you had other problems.



There is NO WAY an aluminum-cased, chain-driven 271 is stronger than a cast-iron cased, gear-driven NP205. I have seen the supposed "ratings", but in the real world, especially the world of off-road hazards that punch holes in aluminum with ease, the NP205 will remain production-line King of t-cases for many years. Torque ratings are very questionable, but the lack of case strength alone gives the 271 an "F" in my book. NP205's have logged more trouble-free miles in more trucks and applications in reverse than 271's ever will in forward gear.



Tell ya what: You take your NV271 and drop it from 5 or 6 feet onto my NP205 (or vice versa). Lets see who still goes 4-wheelin'.



While you're at it, bring your softest-riding coilspring Dodge and compare it to my Skyjacker Softride leafspring K-30 crewcab Chevy (with air suspension for handling heavy loads). There is no comparison in ride quality, steering, load capacity, or strength and reliablity. The Dodge rides and steers like a WWII tank and steers like a drunk.



I have had many solid axle, leaf-sprung Chevy 4x4's, which are the same as 1st gen Dodges. Only 1 ever exhibited any "death wobble". The reason? A bent rim. I know of NO 2nd gen Dodge that has NOT been plagued by it.



Today's punk "engineers" think they can improve on everything tried and true with expensive electronics. Look what it has done to the prices and profits as industry giants drop dead despite outrageous mortgage-sized truck prices.



Keep the change.

 

[Bob4x4]

Like I said the nv5600s are failing... ... ... . I see them in the shop. The strength of a gear case material has little relevance unless it is hit

The nv271's are used in sled pullers over your iron case. My 205 did have issues :-laf it was driven hard but so is my 271. I have real world experience in this country as well as in Baja off road and of course a career in fixing these trucks.



Skyjacker springs are not that custom :-laf

I have NEVER had D/W in my 2nd gen Dodge and I have hundreds of customers who can say the same thing. Generalizations are usually wrong... ... .

Maybe we should go wheelin some time so I can show you the advantages of some technology

 

[SRath]

So Bob, are you saying the NV4500 is stronger than the NV5600? That defies logic as well as testing.



The ONLY reason nv271's are in any pulling trucks is they are already designed to bolt to the truck and transmission being used and are cheap to replace regularly.



Who said skyjackers were "custom"? Don't confuse "aftermarket" with "custom". I said they work extremely well. They are also MUCH cheaper when you want to lift your truck than dealing with coil and link crap. You obviously think you need to spend thousands to have a "custom", and therefore, better, truck. You certainly do if it is a coil/link suspension truck. Not so with leaf springs.



Do you suppose the reason you have never had Death Wobble is because you ARE a mechanic and expert and replace the weak and worn parts before they get bad enough to cause it? Lets take a poll right here on the biggest Cummins Dodge forum. Lets see what percentage of owners have experienced Death Wobble in their 2nd gens. It will be a very high percentage, I am sure.



Now tell me how the junk pseudo-dana 60 in 2nd gens is "better" than a REAL dana 60. I can't wait to hear that one! That will be a hoot!



Maybe you should bring your California truck to Iowa and plow deep, wet snow in -30* weather with a 900 pound blade hanging way off your frontend and 4-wheel in mud and chisel-plowed fields and actually work the thing hard with 5000lb bed loads and in all weather extremes? ANY California truck is "pampered" compared to a midwestern work truck if for no other reason than the weather and road salt corrosion and rough unpaved roads. I'll show you the advantages of tried and true and proven tough.



Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS) is still the best way to engineer for rugged dependability. Leaf spring trucks and non-computerized vehicles without tons of goofy gizmos and high price tags did NOT herald the demise of Detroit. Detroit ruled the automotive World when they built solid and simple vehicles.



New vehicles with all that useless crap killed Detroit because guys like me refuse to pay outrageous prices for unnecessary and unreliable junk.



I drive real trucks for a living. I have literally logged millions of miles in them. Truly heavy duty trucks. Bread-and-butter, money-making trucks that haul 48,000 pound loads. There are NO coil springs on those trucks. Why do you suppose that is. . ?



The newer trucks with all their computerized gizmos are MUCH more expensive to purchase and maintain. They suck. Reliability is a real problem and repairs are expensive and time consuming. Heck, just diagnosing what is wrong is often a huge challenge even for Cummins and the truck dealers. And down time is huge money lost.



When the new OBD generation of semis was slated to come out there was a mass scramble to buy any remaining new truck that did not have it. Pure crap.

Less power. More weight. Lower fuel economy. High price tags. Higher maintenence costs.



The new pickup trucks are no different; just smaller and subject to more needless junk to drive the price up.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

These "generation wars" in regards to Dodge trucks, is getting to be almost as entertaining as the old "oil wars"... :-laf:-laf:-laf



I pulled our 24 foot Kit 5er for 11 years with the old '91 truck, both stock, and later, power modded - never any towing problems or issues, other than tendency to overheat when towing in the steeper California Sierra - then I switched to a later '93 radiator. Later added power mods helped.



Bought the current '02 as the 3rd generation trucks were shown on the horizon - figured I was better off with the LAST of the older generation, than with the FIRST of a new one - never regretted that decision - the '02 is head and shoulders above that excellent '91 on ALL counts, especially driving comfort.



No issues or criticisms of the latest trucks, just personally prefer what I have over what I had - and STILL would not trade even across for an equivalent new model, if offered...



To each his own...

 

[EBung]

1st gens are awesome if you're into riding in a tractor. You can have leaf springs for holding up a Cummins cause thats all they'll do, hold it up.

 

[Firstgenfanantic]

I pulled our 24 foot Kit 5er for 11 years with the old '91 truck, both stock, and later, power modded - never any towing problems or issues, other than tendency to overheat when towing in the steeper California Sierra - then I switched to a later '93 radiator. Later added power mods helped.



the '02 is head and shoulders above that excellent '91 on ALL counts, especially driving comfort.

That's interesting! I have a 24ft Kit Companion 5th wheel travel trailer. My 93' absolutely struggles to pull it!!!! The trans temp goes sky high (automatic) even with my upgraded converter, valve body, and other mods listed in my signature. I think it's just time to get away from 1st gens, especially my auto equipped one. I'm hoping a 2nd gen with tow my trailer much better.

 

[jgillott]

These "generation wars" in regards to Dodge trucks, is getting to be almost as entertaining as the old "oil wars"... :-laf:-laf:-laf



I pulled our 24 foot Kit 5er for 11 years with the old '91 truck, both stock, and later, power modded - never any towing problems or issues, other than tendency to overheat when towing in the steeper California Sierra - then I switched to a later '93 radiator. Later added power mods helped.



Bought the current '02 as the 3rd generation trucks were shown on the horizon - figured I was better off with the LAST of the older generation, than with the FIRST of a new one - never regretted that decision - the '02 is head and shoulders above that excellent '91 on ALL counts, especially driving comfort.



No issues or criticisms of the latest trucks, just personally prefer what I have over what I had - and STILL would not trade even across for an equivalent new model, if offered...



To each his own...

Like you, having owned at least one of each generation of Rams, I am able to make some pretty fair comparisons between them. Leaving our 3rd gens out of the discussion for a moment, I'll focus on just the '92 and '01 I had in the past.



The '92 was a club cab 250 4x4 automatic, and the '01 was a Regular cab 2500 4x4. The '92 was 100% stock and extremely reliable. Other than routine maintanence, I never spent a dime on that engine. It was great on fuel, and would do a very good job of towing considering it's low power ratings and the loose automatic. I probably would have kept that truck a lot longer if it hadn't been in an accident.



The '01 was head and shoulders above that truck in all things but reliability and fuel mileage. It towed better, stopped better, and was more comfortable over the long haul. I went through quite a few parts on that truck before I sold it. Now granted, it was rather highly modified over the years, but even early on in stock form, I already was having problems with lift pumps, VP-44's, etc. By the time I sold it, I had it to the point that it was very reliable. I would take that truck back in a heartbeat. It was the most well rounded one I've ever owned, even considering our newer ones.

 

[Bob4x4]

So Bob, are you saying the NV4500 is stronger than the NV5600? That defies logic as well as testing.



The ONLY reason nv271's are in any pulling trucks is they are already designed to bolt to the truck and transmission being used and are cheap to replace regularly.



Who said skyjackers were "custom"? Don't confuse "aftermarket" with "custom". I said they work extremely well. They are also MUCH cheaper when you want to lift your truck than dealing with coil and link crap. You obviously think you need to spend thousands to have a "custom", and therefore, better, truck. You certainly do if it is a coil/link suspension truck. Not so with leaf springs.



Do you suppose the reason you have never had Death Wobble is because you ARE a mechanic and expert and replace the weak and worn parts before they get bad enough to cause it? Lets take a poll right here on the biggest Cummins Dodge forum. Lets see what percentage of owners have experienced Death Wobble in their 2nd gens. It will be a very high percentage, I am sure.



Now tell me how the junk pseudo-dana 60 in 2nd gens is "better" than a REAL dana 60. I can't wait to hear that one! That will be a hoot!



Maybe you should bring your California truck to Iowa and plow deep, wet snow in -30* weather with a 900 pound blade hanging way off your frontend and 4-wheel in mud and chisel-plowed fields and actually work the thing hard with 5000lb bed loads and in all weather extremes? ANY California truck is "pampered" compared to a midwestern work truck if for no other reason than the weather and road salt corrosion and rough unpaved roads. I'll show you the advantages of tried and true and proven tough.



Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS) is still the best way to engineer for rugged dependability. Leaf spring trucks and non-computerized vehicles without tons of goofy gizmos and high price tags did NOT herald the demise of Detroit. Detroit ruled the automotive World when they built solid and simple vehicles.



New vehicles with all that useless crap killed Detroit because guys like me refuse to pay outrageous prices for unnecessary and unreliable junk.



I drive real trucks for a living. I have literally logged millions of miles in them. Truly heavy duty trucks. Bread-and-butter, money-making trucks that haul 48,000 pound loads. There are NO coil springs on those trucks. Why do you suppose that is. . ?



The newer trucks with all their computerized gizmos are MUCH more expensive to purchase and maintain. They suck. Reliability is a real problem and repairs are expensive and time consuming. Heck, just diagnosing what is wrong is often a huge challenge even for Cummins and the truck dealers. And down time is huge money lost.



When the new OBD generation of semis was slated to come out there was a mass scramble to buy any remaining new truck that did not have it. Pure crap.

Less power. More weight. Lower fuel economy. High price tags. Higher maintenence costs.



The new pickup trucks are no different; just smaller and subject to more needless junk to drive the price up.

:-laf you sound like an angry person... ..... I would not say the 4500 is stronger than any of the 6 speeds but it is much nicer shifting. The new 68rfe trans is better than anything else out there right now for a stock p/up.

I have driven trucks on skyjackers as well as all the other generic/mass produced springs. They have all been less than what is possible. You have been touting how well they work... ... ... . I don't agree. You can still buy a coil spring for about $300 if you do your homework and know the rate and length you want. I doubt you can spec a set of leafs for as little

I still have ALL the origional steering linkage and ball joints on my 94. I have how ever added a stock 3rd gen track bar(off my 05,Free) along with the DSS and their adapter bracket fot the 3rd gen trac bar. I feel that that up grade was fairly in expensive for the # of years the truck has been around.

I have no problen spending a few bucks to make my trucks a bit better than Dodge did.

I still stick by the 271 transfer cases... ... ... ... . anything that can survive Baja in my book is stout. I would not consider either one of my trucks a pampered truck... ... ... . watch some Baja videos. The lack of snow or road salt can not compare to what my trucks see off road



I don't think you will ever see me moving to a snow state... ... ... . nice place to visit not my cup of tea



Enjoy your truck and it's lack of modern technology I enjoy all my rides and close proximity to both Desert and mountain terrain to test and play in.

 

[HBarlow]

An '01 or '02 HO/6 speed will do a great job towing anything you want to hook on and with a set of Bosch 275 injectors will run hard and reliably for hundreds of thousands of miles.

All the reports of failing VP-44s and lift pumps are a mystery to me. I had one lift pump replaced on my '01 under warranty at about 60k miles and insisted my mechanic buddy replace the second one at around 200k miles because I didn't want to chance a failure on the road. The third one is still in it a 350k. I replaced a VP-44 at something over 100k miles due to mistaken diagnosis. My mechanic and I thought the cause of an off idle stumble was the injection pump. It turned out to be a sticking Jacobs Exhaust Brake. I never replaced another VP-44 and, as I said, it's 350k now. I had the NV-5600 overhauled by Standard in Ft. Worth, TX at 302k miles. The head gasket was seeping and replaced at 230k or 250k, don't remember now. A couple of water pumps and a couple sets of hoses and belts. A great old truck. Kinda wish I still owned it sometimes.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

That's interesting! I have a 24ft Kit Companion 5th wheel travel trailer. My 93' absolutely struggles to pull it!!!! The trans temp goes sky high (automatic) even with my upgraded converter, valve body, and other mods listed in my signature. I think it's just time to get away from 1st gens, especially my auto equipped one. I'm hoping a 2nd gen with tow my trailer much better.

HMmmm - my early '91 was also an auto transmission truck - but with the non-overdrive 727 - had very decent towing power with our model 240 KIT 5th wheel - transmission was still shifting good as new at 120K miles, when I sold it after buying the new '02...

 

[SRath]

Bob, If I sound angry, it may be because I am sick to death of dumping thousands of dollars into the crappy frontend of this truck, which I otherwise like very much.



I have spent more on this Dodge front suspension/fake dana60 than I did on the complete lift kits (all 4 leaf springs), air suspension, shocks, maintenence, etc. on my previous THREE Chevy solid axle/leaf spring trucks combined!! And it is still junk!



It simply cannot handle both the weight of the Cummins and the weight and stresses of a Boss V plow along with my off-roading (mostly when hunting).



Now, if you want to talk rear suspension, my Dodge impresses the heck out of me when loaded. That beefy Dana 80 and monster leaf spring pack regularly hauls 5000+ pounds of dirt and gravel in the bed with no issues. And I haven't even added the air suspension yet. It needs it, but only to level out the truck for proper steering and braking. The Cummins and NV4500 and light-duty nv241 have no issues other than 5th gear once. But I am still upgrading to an NV5600 with an NP205 if the frontend will ever leave my pocketbook alone long enough to afford the remaining parts. .



All of my trucks had done snowplow duty. Not commercially; but I do take care of a couple widow ladies with long farm driveways besides my own. I even grade my driveway with it in the spring. I work my trucks hard all the time. That's what I own them for.



The minor issues with the Dodge (incredibly poorly engineered parking brake pedal, rear window/brake light water leaks, 5th gear in the NV4500) don't bother me a bit. They can be fixed once and for good. The front suspension and axle, along with the resultant tire trashing, is a never-ending, monumental drain on my money and time.



I still have my '88 V-30 (old body style same as an '87 K30) crewcab, single-rear-wheel Chevy with a built 454 and TH400, real dana 60 front and corporate 14 bolt rear all riding on softride leafs and 35 inch BFG Mud Terrains. It has NEVER trashed a single tire. It is a fantastic pickup and I am constantly asked if I would sell it.



My answer is to always point to the dodge and say: "When the dodge someday falls off that Cummins, that diesel is going in this Chevy and I will finally have my dream truck. "



The chevy has pretty much sat for the past several years. Now my son is driving and it will be going back on the road (meaning I'll add it to my insurance bill). Thing is, I may put him in the dodge and drive the chevy myself. It rides and steers infinitely better than the dodge and the stock Cummins, much as I absolutely love it, has nowhere near the horsepower or fun-factor of that well-built 454.



You may wonder why I don't put the Boss V on the chevy? That will probably happen soon. It is not an inexpensive thing to buy another wiring harness and frame mount. I also don't like having to cut and weld the plow frame assembly for a truck that sits that high and a crewcab is not the most maneuverable vehicle with a plow hanging 4 feet past the front bumper.



The dodge was supposed to be the workhorse. The coil/link/trackbar/control arms front suspension and fake dana 60 just can't hack it.



My brother had his '02 or '03 (?) California dodge crewcab, 24v Cummins/NV5600 here last fall. The fuel pump system had just cost him a couple thousand dollars and I was not the least bit impressed with the "improvement" the 24v was supposed to be over my 12v. The NV5600 was not the smoothest shifting transmission, but neither is the NV4500. And you get used to either quickly. They are pickup gearboxes; not sports car trannies.



That was a truly pampered truck, and the steering and front suspension was still showing signs of dodge deterioration. He was very unhappy when I told him how it would continue to go downhill, what the inevitable Death Wobble felt like, and what it would cost to fix...

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Thank God I held out for my well equipped '02 4x2 - way too many problem issues and MPG issues added along with 4x4 capability. I know many guys MUST have the 4x4 for various reasons - just glad I'm not one of them...