Competition Aftermarket Cylinder Heads

[Jim Fulmer]

So here is the question, who has them, who runs them, what is the cost (for a 12V) but most important what are the flow specs and at what lift.



We run Twins and try to cram air in, some try a different manifold but the head is still the restriction, lets face it there are too many things in the way for a good flowing head, push rod tubes, cooling passages, ect, ect and with all the porting one does it still flow about 2/3 of what it needs to based on C. I and air going to it.



Just don't see fuel as an issue now.



Gasser guys got over this, now it's time we should.



Jim

 

[McDowra]

We are also extremly interested in anyone who could make an aftermarket head that flows what these motors need... Someone should step up to the plate... .

 

[Forrest Nearing]

start contacting the head manufacturers... if you want an iron head, I'd approach Dart/World Products as they still make a number of performance iron heads... most other places only do aluminum heads.



when they see how much we spend on worked over stock heads, and they see how much interest there is, there's a very good chance you could get the ball rolling pretty quickly. we came VERY close to getting TFS to start developing a head for the ford Lima 2. 3, and then Esslinger caught wind of it and put one out by re-tooling their race head but TFS was totally on board.



they won't be cheap though.



Forrest

 

[Jim Fulmer]

Cost is a big issue with me, I just can't drop 5K on a head, till then I guess I stay with the ported stocker.



Jim

 

[Forrest Nearing]

I think we were lookin' at like $2500, but I don't know how many units they were planning on running... the 2. 3 is VERY popular in dirt racing...



like anything "it never hurts to ask". the diesel performance world isn't exactly shrinking, and the 12v cummins is king of the roost. but I would imagine that the balls out guys would be more into billet aluminum race heads that don't need a lot of cooling.



but there IS a market for a "street" head for these engines... especially since the stockers are prone to cracking... that was one of the selling points to TFS on the 2. 3... those heads like to crack... heck, World Products makes an aftermarket replacement head for the Ford 2. 9 because the heads are SO crack prone... they're not a performance replacement, just a straight replacement, but if someone comes with a half-assed proposal and there's money to be made, they WILL do it!



Forrest

 

[HoleshotHolset]

www.staabmachine.com



Billet heads are BIG money and those that are at the pinnacle of diesel performance seem to think they're worth the extra coin.



Matt

 

[Jim Fulmer]

but there IS a market for a "street" head for these engines... especially since the stockers are prone to cracking For what it's worth my head had no cracks in it, now having said that I don't drag race but I've made at least 100 high MPH passes doing testing, lets say 45-50 to 110-120 MPH.



Billet heads are great if you had the budget and some do, but if we had a head that was cast and had more meat in the right spots for porting that would work, I'm not thinking of a head that would flow 400 cfm but 250-300 would be much better, less than 200 has it's limits.



Jim

 

[F8LDOSE]

For the cost don't think it would be worth it. You can't do anything with 1000rwhp that you can't do with 800rwhp. You could always take a stock head, have it welded solid and make your own ports, no biggy, that been done on 4cyl imports before by Bob Norwood. I think Staab Machine wanted around 25k to start on one.

 

[Forrest Nearing]

You can't do anything with 1000rwhp that you can't do with 800rwhp.

BS, you'll get to the end of the track faster than the guy w/ only 800hp!



welding up heads is a lot easier with aluminum than with iron. you can weld up iron heads too, but it's especially tough on something w/ an integral intake hanging off of it.



if there was a bolt on iron head that flowed double what a stocker flows right out of the box for $2500-3500, I bet they'd sell a ton of 'em.



Forrest

 

[Jim Fulmer]

Jason, that's funny you mentioned Norwood, he tunes a bud of mines car..... Chuck Seitsinger, Chuck's shop is were I dyno and tune his truck.



2500-3500 still leaves 4-5K when your finished depending how it's cast... ... ... daddy needs more money.



Jim

 

[supersonic]

Staab gave me an estimate in the $10-12,000 range, for a billet steel head. Indy Cylinder Head (where I am getting the heads done now) gave me a quote for around $7,000. For a solid Billet alum head. I'ts not the money that's keeping me from getting one made by Indy, I'ts the rules that don't allow it. I think a high nickle (material content, not money), special casted head with innconell valves and seats that flowed around 350-400cfm would be the ticket. We just need to find a company willing to do it and show them that it's worth their while. I think World Products or IDT would be good candidates.

 

[JoshPeters]

OK, this is not a flame.....



Haisleys, Sheids, and Kent Crowder don't even port their heads. I realize that with any engine it has to breathe, but if they can get 1200hp out of a stock, non-ported head, why are we looking for an aftermarket? What do our heads flow stock... . and ported?



I too am in the market for a new head... . I believe mine is cracked. I can't seem to keep the coolant in the radiator! If there was a head out there at a Reasonable price, I'd be taking a look. The best one I have found right now is a stock casting head, with valves, springs, etc for under $500.



Josh

 

[DieselTweaker]

I would love to see world products make a aftermarket head for cummins, It's hard to tell how much a good aftermarket head could flow I run world heads already it's hard to beat them for the cost and the quality of thier products



If people out there are building 1200hp on a stock head it's hard to tell what that number could go to with a aftermarket head,,,,,Larger runners,,,bigger valves

 

[mfunderburgh]

. I'ts not the money that's keeping me from getting one made by Indy, I'ts the rules that don't allow it.

Chris, you could run any aftermarket head in DHRA according to the rules for the mod class. I have a feeling that they want the class to take another step. Matt

 

[supersonic]

I WAS trying to be quiet about DHRA not mentioning it in their rules :-laf (intentionaly or not), but since Jim brought it up I figured i'd let you guys know my findings. And Josh, actually "we" do port our heads quite extensively, and put in good valve seats and re do the guides to our liking on every motor.

 

[JoshPeters]

And Josh, actually "we" do port our heads quite extensively, and put in good valve seats and re do the guides to our liking on every motor.

So I have to assume your "we" is Haisley, Shieds, etc... . ?



I was told that by a friend of mine, whom has talked to a few people down there..... His information may be bad.



Josh

 

[DieselTweaker]

chris who dose your port work?

 

[Jim Fulmer]

What do our heads flow stock... . and ported? 130-140 stock and around 200 fully ported.



So let me get this straight because I'm lost here, I go to Haisley, Schied or Mitchell and pay 35K for a 1000 hp motor and don't even get a ported head, yet I can call Piers or get a local head ported to do it... ... . hum.



Don't think sled puller as much as a street truck, you know one that is actually driven say 500 miles a week, and lets just say that truck will make 800 hp with a head that flows in the 170's, now get a head that flows 350 were does the power go to, what happens to boost, what happens to driveability ect. Street driving is totally different than coming off the line at 6K, when the big boy's chargers are lighting I'm shifting. This is the stuff that I look at now, I don't need more air or fuel I need to use it better... ... . Ok maybe a little different top charger but I don't see that anytime soon.



Jim

 

[COMP461]

Air flow is the key essential to making any engine make power , the ability for a engine to flow air up top , is where the big power is made , you take any of the reputable head porters , Piers, Schieds, Haisley, and the extreme head porters like Buddha power and now RAYMAC . you will get exceptional results .

The goal is pounds of air in , not pounds of boost. If air is heated from a over worked turbo , the density is less ,or if the intake track is restrictive or cam timing is short , you have build up back pressure behind the intake valve. I would assure you that with a good cam , and aggressive head work you will pick up air flow , that is cooler ,and denser. this extra air will let you fuel more ,and make more power. Even with a stock turbo.



I have been using John Russin’s cams for a year now ,and on a 04 common rail dodge his drop in cam is good for about 25 hp peak , but if you move up the RPM band to where most CR dodges fall off the gain is closer to 60 hp . the egt’s cool off about 75 total on the trailer pull . this is where I hook up to my 40 12000 trailer and pull up a good 4 mile grade on the highway on the test loop we use to test DR Performance product. The cam really make a difference on the common rail with injectors the hp is close to 35 peak , and 80 up high , with a cam and phase III injectors the motor gained a total of 142 hp at peak, producing 408 rwh

Just because you have big boost numbers dose no equate to air in the cylinder

 

[supersonic]

chris who dose your port work?

Indy Cylinder Head for the new one. Cropper Racing Engines on the old motor. Cropper would have done this one but they were too busy, although i'm very happy with what Indy did.