Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Air Dog vs F.A.S.S.

[KVaughn]

Just installed the FASS stand alone 95 GHP pusher pump yesterday. Fairly simple to install. I did it in about 1. 5 hours on my back in the driveway in 25 degree weather. This would be much easier in a shop with a lift (and heat). (You can download the installation instruction from dieselpp.com) Truck started up almost immediately. Noticable power increase, esp at the top end. This is likely due to running on the VP prior to install, not sure if a pump alone can increase HP?? The pump only was $369 + tax. I figure I can spend the $300+ I saved over the air / fuel sysem on something else (Fuel Pressure Guage!). Now I just need a double jointed midget to remove the old pump and plumbing. :-laf

 

[cpeters]

You still have to shut the truck off at the drive-thru, It is quieter since I got the fass but not that much!

 

[Hohn]

Need some opinions. Pressure from the LP is slowly dropping. I'm interested in one of the aftermarket pumps. What are your thoughts on the Air Dog & FASS systems. How do they differ? What's good or bad about either of them? I'll keep the truck a long time so don't really care that much about cost... just want to do it right the first time. It's a '01 ETH 90,000mi No fuel enhancements YET. Thanks for your help, Jim :-{}

Don't need either. Rig up a low-pressure cheapie Carter by the tank and open up the factory fittings. If you have 2-3psi at WOT, then you have plenty of FP.



Justin

 

[Stefan Kondolay]

First and foremost I realise this thread is about the Air Dog and the Fass systems however I need to clarify some false information about KO’s RASP system.



Guys telling you that you need to have the electrical fuel pump to make the RASP work obviously do not know anything about this system and probably not a great deal about diesels in general. If what they were telling you were true, all the 12 valve trucks out there need to pull over because would have to get electrical fuel pumps put on right away.



The reason why the OEM factory lift pump is left on is for convenience. It makes changing the fuel filter a breeze, and also can serve as a back up should you ever break a belt. It is for convenience period. To date DTT has personally sold over 100 of these systems and have NEVER HAD ONE FAILURE period. NOT EVEN A BELT, not even a phone call other than guys wanting to alter pressures. Which is easily done with a shim.



Granted you may pay a little bit more but it allows you to run two independent systems for the money and you don’t have to worry about the electrical failures. Heck it comes with a 5 year warranty. As for air separation, the only people that seem to have a problem with that are the people selling the air separation kits. While we believe strongly in this pump system because it has proven itself to be reliable and quiet, by quiet I mean it makes no noise at all. I can honestly say we don’t care which pump you guys choose to run but we won’t sit by and have someone that has never had one or know anything about it try and discredit this product . We have been involved with the testing of this system from the beginning when we were looking for a solution for our own Dodge and that is why we know the statements in this thread are untrue.

 

[MicroOutlawRacer]

I put an AirDog on my wife's truck over Thanksgiving and could not be more pleased. 15-18psi ALL the time. The pump itself is more quiet then a FASS. Customer service was AWESOME!! They were a little backed up and the owner was so understanding that we needed it that he overnighted it the same day w/no extra charge. He also gave me his cell phone number in case I had a problem installing it over the holiday. Not too many company owners are willing to give their number out like that!

David

 

[tractorface]

Quiet

Bet your Airdog is not quieterthan my FASS, it is almost impossible to tell its running since I fed it with a 1/2" pipe directly to the fuel in the tank.

I think all three systems offer an excellent solution, they are all somewhat different so choose what features you like best. I am not sure I agree with Hohn but respect his opinion because he has always put up excellent technical posts in the past

 

[Edward]

First and foremost I realise this thread is about the Air Dog and the Fass systems however I need to clarify some false information about KO’s RASP system.



Guys telling you that you need to have the electrical fuel pump to make the RASP work obviously do not know anything about this system and probably not a great deal about diesels in general. If what they were telling you were true, all the 12 valve trucks out there need to pull over because would have to get electrical fuel pumps put on right away.



The reason why the OEM factory lift pump is left on is for convenience. It makes changing the fuel filter a breeze, and also can serve as a back up should you ever break a belt. It is for convenience period.

"How does this system affect changing your fuel filter: Changing your fuel filter is childs play, as the KO RASP fuel pump is not involved when you change the fuel filter, your electric fuel pump does all the work, same as always. Whatever procedures you previously used to change your fuel filter prior to installation of the RASP system remains the same. One of the hardest things with the mechanical fuel pump was changing your fuel filter. However with the RASP system running parallel with your electric fuel pump system KO made changing the fuel filter a breeze. "



Stefan

What happens if the factory system is removed or is not working and you change a fuel filter? Wouldn't it require using the starter to turn the engine over until the filter is primed? Wouldn’t this cause unnecessary ware on a very expensive starter? Saying that the OEM lift pump is left in place for convince sounds nice but leaves the priming issue a little glossed over. According to your own web sight the Rasp is designed with the thought of leaving some type of electrical fuel pumping system in place. I know when your father takes the time to design something every thing in that design is needed and in the design for a reason. When your father designs something he is thorough. That is all I was saying in my post above so please do not take any offense.



Edward

 

[Stefan Kondolay]

Edward if you are implying that all electric fuel pumps will fail we agree. We have personally experienced many failures on our own personal truck. We have tried Barry Grant, Holly, Mallory, we have even rescued a Piers customer 4 hours away from our shop when his Fass failed. He was an awesome guy that was in the US military and just coming back from his holiday. If these pumps were not failing guys would not be still looking for options. It has happened to all of us at one time or another and when it does happen you better have a good friend or a towing company on speed dial.



This system is no different than changing a fuel filter on a 12 valve. Both run mechanical pumps and we both manage fine. Me personally I wouldn’t waste my time worrying about a starter, I would be more worried about the VP44 pump failure with the higher pressures most guys are running with these after market fuel pumps. I think all of us have been though or heard about the hard starting problems with the higher fuel pressures at an idle that the aftermarket electric pumps run. That is just another reason we liked the RASP pump, fuel volume goes up as engine rpms come up. With electric fuel pumps fuel pressure goes down as more load is put on it.

 

[Edward]

Edward if you are implying that all electric fuel pumps will fail we agree. .

Stefan

I made no such implication. What I did say is that the Rasp was not designed to run as a stand-alone unit. Your father designed it to work with an electrical fuel pumping system. I hope I was not being to presumptions by inferring he did that for a good reason.

As for the rest of your post, I believe other vendors pay to promote their products on this sight and I think it would be great if DTT did the same.





Edward

 

[DieselMinded]

. """ We have tried Barry Grant, Holly, Mallory, """



what about the carter ???

 

[Stefan Kondolay]

Edward this all started because you were speaking about a product you have never tried and know nothing about otherwise I would not even been involved in this thread. From everything I have heard FASS and Air Dog take care of their respective customers. What I said was electric fuel pumps still have issues. DieselMinded, the Carter’s were the first ones we changed out. With all the money we shelled out on my own truck’s electric pumps I needed to find something that worked especially when Bill stopped paying for them. That is how we ended up with the RASP, it was very much like our racing pumps we used and we have not had or seen any failures.

 

[Edward]

Edward this all started because you were speaking about a product you have never tried and know nothing about otherwise I would not even been involved in this thread.

Stefan

Actually this started because you do not respect the fact that someone is entitled to a differing opinion about the products you sell. Your statement that I "do not know anything about this system and probably not a great deal about diesels in general" was meant to discredit me personally and to be honest uncalled for. Unfortunately the approach you took is quite common and simply boils down to, if you cannot dispute the message discredit the messenger.

All I know about the RASP is what I have read on your companies web sight, what some of your customers posted on this sight as well as others, and what your father told me when I spoke to him personally. I was actually looking into purchasing the RASP at one time and did everything I could to become an informed consumer. I base the majority of my opinion on information I received directly from DTT. It is an informed opinion and I stand by it.

As long as you sell the RASP with a check valve and a Hobbs pressure switch the RASP cannot be considered a stand-alone unit. Their only purpose in a kit would be to facilitate the use of an electric fuel pump in a combined fuel system. As I said before your father left the electric pump in there for a reason and as meticulous as he is it had to be a good one.

Realizing this I decided that if I needed an electric fuel pump anyway why not get one that has a proven history and can stand-alone. That is why I purchased the AirDog. Some might disagree with my decision but that is their opinion and they are just as free to form theirs as I am mine.



Edward

 

[MVieira]

Edward are you a liberal democrat? Your tone suggests that you are. I've read alot of your posts and you mildly attack anyone and anything having to do with DTT. You have not filled out your personal profile, are you hiding something ? Do you work for ATS ? Sorry, but I just get offended when you knock something I think highly of.

I've worked for a CAT heavy equip. dealer for 22 years, 14 as a mechanic, and most CAT engines use a gear transfer fuel pump and some use a piston or plunger style. They usually have a hand priming pump to fill the fuel system up with fuel after a filter change or when the system has been opened up.

This leads me to my point: Edward, you said the Rasp has to have the electric pump to run, but if you read their site it was left in to make filter changes a snap, since Dodge left us with no other way to prime the system and as a back up in case the belt failed. Other than priming or backup it is not needed. Once the engine is cranked over a gear rotor pump will supply the fuel needed to start the engine and volume will increase with RPM.

If you are buying a FASS or Fuel Preporator for a better electric transfer pump system I think you are on the right track. If it is for the air separation, you are buying a sales pitch. I talked to 4 CAT engineers, after a training class they put on for Caterpillar ACERT engines, they said they have been asked about air separation alot over the past year, (since the FASS and Preporator came out), and they felt it was kind of a joke. They gave me a bunch of reasons why and I don't want to go that deeply into it here but you can pm me if you want and I can go into that there, I hope I can remeber everthing they told me. Now these were not marketing guys but guys that deal with engine and fuel system design. They were aware of Brad Ekstam working with a CAT truck engine dealer in Ill. or Ia. installing the early air separation units on trucks, when Brad and his dad were still together, but these CAT guys felt that there were no benefits from the system. If the air separation thing was that big a deal you think you would have seen it on Diesels from the big 3: Caterpillar, Cummins, and Detriot. Especially since they are trying to fight tough Tier 2 and Tier 3 emissions requirements.

Sorry for the long rant, and Edward I know you are entitled to your own opinion and can post it and I respect that, but it seems to me that you are always picking a fight with anything DTT and it kind of got too me today.



Mike

 

[OTRPU]

The real crime is that the father & son owners can't get together and come up with the perfect fuel pump system. The world just has too much my daddy is bigger than your daddy BS going on. And people that just have to be right all the time. When you get alittle older you realize it's your interactions with others that is really all that counts in life.



Cheers,

Steve J

 

[Edward]

Edward are you a liberal democrat?

Mike I don’t know what political party affiliation has to do with anything but the answer to your question is no. You might want to go to the political thread on this web sight and read some of my posts there if you want a clearer understanding of my political views.

Your tone suggests that you are.

Mike I am not trying to insult you with this next statement so please do not take it that way. In all honesty I find this one funny. No one that knows me would ever make that assumption.

I've read alot of your posts and you mildly attack anyone and anything having to do with DTT.

Mike I am not trying to fuel a fight in fact I will end the discussion before it gets to the argument level. But in my opinion the attacks come from the Wolf Pack because they become offended by opinions differing from their own. That last statement is probably going to offend someone but the question was asked and answered honestly.

As I said above, it was failure to recognize that I am entitled to my opinion that led to someone insulting me and then challenging me on my opinion. Please step back, be honest and tell me who the attack came from. There has to be room for more than one group of opinions on any web sight.

You have not filled out your personal profile, are you hiding something ?

Nope, not hiding anything at all. I post my views on a public web sight so everyone can read them.

Do you work for ATS ?

Mike No I do not work for ATS. I have never received any type of payment or product from them for endorsing their products either. Every product I have gotten from ATS I paid for because I thought it was worth the money.

Sorry, but I just get offended when you knock something I think highly of.

Mike I want you to take a moment and think about my next two statements.

One. Can freedom of speech exist in an arena of ideas that is free from offense? If I cannot say something because it may offend you, then am I able to speak freely?

Two. Isn’t becoming offended a personal choice? In all reality don’t you control all the factors that involve when and if you become offended?

This leads me to my point: Edward, you said the Rasp has to have the electric pump to run, but if you read their site it was left in to make filter changes a snap, since Dodge left us with no other way to prime the system and as a back up in case the belt failed. Other than priming or backup it is not needed.

Mike Yes I did say that, for the simple reason that it will not run if you cannot get it primed. Dodge did not design the RASP system so they aren’t the one’s who left you with no way to prime the RASP system. As far as the OE fuel system being left on for convince. Well lets call that statement an over simplification to aid a perfectly good sales pitch. If you have ever had to loosen the injector lines to bleed the air out I doubt that you would consider that process a mere inconvenience to an ordinary fuel filter change.

If you are buying a FASS or Fuel Preporator for a better electric transfer pump system I think you are on the right track.

“I decided that if I needed an electric fuel pump anyway why not get one that has a proven history and can stand-alone. That is why I purchased the AirDog. ”

If it is for the air separation, you are buying a sales pitch.

I talked to 4 CAT engineers, after a training class they put on for Caterpillar ACERT engines, they said they have been asked about air separation alot over the past year, (since the FASS and Preporator came out), and they felt it was kind of a joke. They gave me a bunch of reasons why and I don't want to go that deeply into it here but you can pm me if you want and I can go into that there, I hope I can remeber everthing they told me. Now these were not marketing guys but guys that deal with engine and fuel system design. They were aware of Brad Ekstam working with a CAT truck engine dealer in Ill. or Ia. installing the early air separation units on trucks, when Brad and his dad were still together, but these CAT guys felt that there were no benefits from the system.

If the air separation thing was that big a deal you think you would have seen it on Diesels from the big 3: Caterpillar, Cummins, and Detriot. Especially since they are trying to fight tough Tier 2 and Tier 3 emissions requirements.

Mike

If I wanted to look at this section of your post the same way you looked at what I wrote, well I guess I could choose to become offended. I could also think that you are mildly attacking something that I think highly of. However I think you are entitled to the views you posted above. They are well thought out and expressed well. I choose not to be offended by your opinions in fact an open debate of ideas would be beneficial to everyone. Providing that it did not deteriorate into an argument.

Sorry for the long rant, and Edward I know you are entitled to your own opinion and can post it and I respect that, but it seems to me that you are always picking a fight with anything DTT and it kind of got too me today.

Mike

This provokes a question in my mind. Why is it that any expression of an idea or opinion outside of Wolf Pack group think is automatically considered to be picking on them?



Edward

 

[Edward]

The real crime is that the father & son owners can't get together and come up with the perfect fuel pump system. The world just has too much my daddy is bigger than your daddy BS going on. And people that just have to be right all the time. When you get alittle older you realize it's your interactions with others that is really all that counts in life.



Cheers,

Steve J

Agreed

It is sad when a family inflicts it's self with wounds that will take more than a lifetime to heal.



Edward

 

[darkhorse]

My goodness. I've lost track of the facts as we know them in the case for improving fuel delivery. :-{} It sounds like the big three options all do the job most of the time but they all seem rather expensive to me. Gary has outlined an economy alternative in another thread. It's nice to have alternatives for those not made from $$$. Oh & BTW I'm a liberal independent with a fiscal conservative streak. IMHO we all just got Bushwhacked again. :-laf heat shielding, don't leave home without it.

 

[Wes Kohler]

the new fitting with the fass also let you fuel with the engine running but the air dog dosn't have ports to heat the fuel in cold climates

 

[abdiver]

Yes I have a headache too, after reading the last 2 pages

My goodness. I've lost track of the facts as we know them in the case for improving fuel delivery. :-{} It sounds like the big three options all do the job most of the time but they all seem rather expensive to me. Gary has outlined an economy alternative in another thread. It's nice to have alternatives for those not made from $$$. Oh & BTW I'm a liberal independent with a fiscal conservative streak. IMHO we all just got Bushwhacked again. :-laf heat shielding, don't leave home without it.

I understand that Air Dog just raised their prices the 15th