almost empty oil filter

[deelee]

I have been changing oil in my trucks the last 18 years and have never seen this. The last 3 times I dropped the filter, it was almost empty, but when I poured all the oil back in the jugs I still took out 3 gallons. Should I be worried?

 

[BIGNASTY]

How would it DRAIN UP!!!!! Ill keep an eye on this one for sure.

 

[cerberusiam]

Not sure if it means anything or not but it happens.



No Nasty, it is not draining up. The drain back to the pain is pulling a siphon on the filter and its actually draining down.



However, that does beg the question how air is getting in from the oil pump side.

 

[Southbound]

Jumping on this train!!! And will be taking notice the next time I service my truck.



Southbound

 

[chipster]

Not sure if it means anything or not but it happens.



No Nasty, it is not draining up. The drain back to the pain is pulling a siphon on the filter and its actually draining down.



However, that does beg the question how air is getting in from the oil pump side.

the piston cooler jets have no check valves, so when the engine is off they start to rapidly drain the main oil gallery, witch starts the syphon out of the oil filter. it can only pull oil out of the filter to the depth of the threaded nipple that the filter screws onto. the air to allow the syphon to happen, comes from the turbo oil feed line. as soon as the engine stops, the turbo oil drains out of the turbo, and air can enter the oil filter through the turbo drain line. that`s my story and I`m stickin` to it !! that`s why I pull the oil drain plug out of the oil pan to let the hot oil drain out of the pan AND the oil filter. it only takes a few minutes for the filter to syphon out and I never spill any oil when I remove the filter. I imagine a small amount of air COULD creep through the oilpump gears and the oil pickup tube, but I think most air comes from the turbo drain line. usually 15 to 20 minutes will get the oil down in the filter. there`s . 005" to . 008" clearance between the oil pump gears, so some air could pass through after the oil drains low enough to ulcover the pick-up tube. :-laf :-laf

 

[BIGNASTY]

chipster

OK ill take your word for it. It sounds pretty good to me but if it happened to his 04 then my 04. 5 is different? You state that it would cause the filter to drain to the thread nipple, he said its almost empty. Im not trying to pick a fight just would like to get to the bottom of this. I use almost the same technique that you do for oil drain only I dont change it hot. I drive it to where it's going to be changed (usually hot) and park it to let everything drain to the pan. ( and drain the next day) I have a spring loaded filter punch that has a tube around the punch slip it over the filter and pull back the spring on the punch and it punches a hole in the bottom of the filter and drains it into a pan. But I do see that the oil from the filter is not letting it go empty.

BIG

After posting and re- reading your post it still doesn't explain how the air is being drawn thru the turbo drain line (its a closed system) If in fact it did enter there ,UPON STARTING THERE WOULD BE ONE HELL OF AN OIL LEAK SOMEPLACE!!!!OR A BUNCH OF SMOKE OUT THE TAIL PIPE. if the oil were being caught in the turbo housing. ALL GOOD QUESTIONS I CANT WAIT TO HEAR THE ENDING. And the wife said I should read more anyway :-laf

 

[cerberusiam]

Pulling it down to the threaded nipple is quit normal, almost emptying the filter is rather unusual. I suppose if the turbo bushing is worn enough it pull enough air back in thru it siphon it down. That just means the oil filter is holding a siphon thru the media. Not sure if that is good or bad.

 

[chipster]

chipster



OK ill take your word for it. It sounds pretty good to me but if it happened to his 04 then my 04. 5 is different? You state that it would cause the filter to drain to the thread nipple, he said its almost empty. Im not trying to pick a fight just would like to get to the bottom of this. I use almost the same technique that you do for oil drain only I dont change it hot. I drive it to where it's going to be changed (usually hot) and park it to let everything drain to the pan. ( and drain the next day) I have a spring loaded filter punch that has a tube around the punch slip it over the filter and pull back the spring on the punch and it punches a hole in the bottom of the filter and drains it into a pan. But I do see that the oil from the filter is not letting it go empty.



BIG



After posting and re- reading your post it still doesn't explain how the air is being drawn thru the turbo drain line (its a closed system) If in fact it did enter there ,UPON STARTING THERE WOULD BE ONE HELL OF AN OIL LEAK SOMEPLACE!!!!OR A BUNCH OF SMOKE OUT THE TAIL PIPE. if the oil were being caught in the turbo housing. ALL GOOD QUESTIONS I CANT WAIT TO HEAR THE ENDING. And the wife said I should read more anyway :-laf

the filter cannot syphon below the threaded nipple, once the oil is below that point the syphon stops. I`v read on a few threads of the filter being almost empty, but most guys do not measure the oil in the filter with a ruler. they just say it was really low, if you measure the distance the nipple goes into the filter and then measure the oil in the filter you`ll see the oil stopped when the nipple is uncovered. ( do not poke a hole in your next filter and see how low it really is) the filter will be `bout 3/4 full or a little more. but it will not spill any oil when you remove it. there`s a good bit of clearance between the turbo shaft and the 2 bushings and between the bushings and turbo housing. oil pressure goes in the top of the turbo housing and to passages to the bushings and then to the turbo shaft, there`s no seals on the inner ends of the bushings to the shaft, so as the oil comes out of the bushings past the shaft it runs down the drain tube. that`s why the center turbo housing must be level or less than 25 degrees one way or the other. if it is more than 45 degrees tilted ( I forget exactly how many degrees holset specifies, but you get the idea) the oil will fill the bottem of the housing and start to flood the bushing pocket and oil will leak past the maise ring seals on the out side of the bushings, and enter the compressor or the exhaust pipe. as soon as the engine stops the hot oil runs down the large drain tube and any oil in the bushings and pocket drain with it. the drain tube emptys into the oil pan way above the oil in the pan, and that area is exposed to atmosphere through the vent tube on the side of the engine. the turbo drain line MUST NOT enter the pan below the oil level or it will flood the turbo bushing cavity. it is not a closed system. I expect some air gets through the drain tube and depending on the stopped position of the oil pump gears, through the oil pick up tube, after the oil is drained lower than the pick tube inlet opening. if you put a mechanical oil pressure gauge on a cummins you`ll see that every time you start it there will be NO oil pressure for a few seconds, then the pressure will smack the gauge to 50 psi or so. it will not build pressure slowly like a gas engine. that smack is what caused early fram filters and quite a few electric oil pressure sending units to fail. newer fram filters do not come apart internally. the oil hits the filter and gauge HARD because the oil pump is a really high volume pump ( the pick up tube is 1. 250" diameter) and has to fill the oil filter and main oil galley every time you start the engine before it can build oil pressure. the low oil in the filter is the same on my `92 12v and my brother`s `06 24v. my brother`s `06 24v has an amsoil by pass filter high on the driver side of the engine and the outlet line goes into the oil fill cap, and it also drains to just below the nipple.

 

[Gonzo 1066]

I have seen this same thing in many many diesel engines over the years. I would suggest that you find something more worthy of worry. This is really a non event in my opinion. The oil simply drains back more when the engine sits for more than a few minutes. Do a experiment, take the filter off almost immeaditly and check the level in it. Then let the engine sit for 8 hours and do the same test. You will find that overnight the oil level in the filter goes down. It is just that most of the time we never know about it.

 

[BIGNASTY]

Two points of interest at least on my truck. 1 I run a FS 2500 on my truck and the point that the oil is sent to the filter is on top of the OEM filter housing wondering if that is why on at least MY TRUCK that when I haven't used the filter punch to drain the filter to remove it when the filter was removed I had allot of oil come off the top of the filter and run down the side of it so at least I knew that my case oil filter was full. FS 2500 is below the level of the normal OEM fliter I would hardly think that it would siphon. 2 I have a pre luber on my truck that when I hit the key it starts the pump on the pre luber and it has oil pressure before I crank the motor so does this mean that the piston oil jets you spoke of have oil pressure on them as well?



BIG

 

[Prairie Dog]

Mine has always been a couple of inches down when I change it - never thought much about it. I think it was that way with my 93 too.
I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[deelee]

Thank-you for your input. I always change my oil the same way. I drop the oil hot then crack the filter to make it easier to loosen the next day. When I used to be in a big hurry, I would drop the filter right away and hot oil would run down the filter all over me. On this truck Ive not been in a big hurry. The next time I change the oil, I will drop the filter right away and see how much is in there. My boss has run fords forever and he said not to worry, it would happen to him all the time. My concern is I have 700,000 on my truck and it just started this 3 oil changes ago!

 

[chipster]

Two points of interest at least on my truck. 1 I run a FS 2500 on my truck and the point that the oil is sent to the filter is on top of the OEM filter housing wondering if that is why on at least MY TRUCK that when I haven't used the filter punch to drain the filter to remove it when the filter was removed I had allot of oil come off the top of the filter and run down the side of it so at least I knew that my case oil filter was full. FS 2500 is below the level of the normal OEM fliter I would hardly think that it would siphon. 2 I have a pre luber on my truck that when I hit the key it starts the pump on the pre luber and it has oil pressure before I crank the motor so does this mean that the piston oil jets you spoke of have oil pressure on them as well?



BIG

yup, the pre-luber fills the filter and main oil galley, so the piston jets will have oil in them when you start the engine. now lets worry `bout somethin` that`s really important ! like how to get back in the woods next elk season !!! Butch :-laf :-laf :-laf

 

[MHalloran]

deelee, with 700,000 miles so far & no real problems with it, i would not worry too much. Oil pressure comes right up on start too, I'm sure... ..... drive on!

 

[DonFitzwater]

My 06 does it and so does my buddy's new 6. 7. I like it because it doesn't make a huge mess all over the place when you drop the filter (unless you really DROP the filter!)

 

[DeezelDood]

Same here. Like other threads in this post I have pulled the filter a few hours after engine is off and also over night. Earlier filter drop, big mess, even using a ziplock bag around the filter. Overnight not a drop, filter half empty. Many members are using a Fumoto valve like I am. Drain off two jugs then let the last one drip all night. Oil changes a snap. I will use this post to highlight recent TDR update on oil recommendations. Since CJ oils are now most people's only option the writer recommends the additive pkg in Shell Rotella and Castrol. I've switched to the Rotella 15w40 Dino oil. Oh one more thing, my most recent change I could not get the filter to thread. Driving myself nuts until I noticed the old filter gasket was stuck on the housing seat. Always learning...

 

[brods]

For the first few years oil came out when the filter was loosened. Then there came a point where nothing would come out, but tipping the filter while getting it out would cause it to spill. Last change (108K) the oil was at least half way down in the filter. I assumed it was due to the oil pump clearances opening up and allowing drain back, otherwise why didn't it do it from the start?



As for how the filter could drain lower than the nipple, its likely that the oil soaked filter material is dense enough to keep the air from passing through it while the oil is siphoned out.

 

[BIGNASTY]

Interesting thread im changing my oil in AM truck has 125K on it I just wonder where my oil is. Ive been running a FS 2500 bypass from day one see if maybe that made a diffrence some how. Might not allow for oil siphon.

 

[DeezelDood]

Just a thought. I'd guess the trapped oil cooling between pump discharge and filter inlet side creates a vacuum which draws the oil in the filter back through the non return valve, inlet holes and the pump. This explains why the level is below the outlet nipple. Check valves and gear pumps are not 100% tight to back flow. Once the oil and engine has cooled to ambient and the system pressure equalizes the flow stops. Increase in viscosity at the low temp will also slow/stop flow. The filter media may wick up some of the oil so the level could drop marginally even after the pressure equalizes.

 

[BIGNASTY]

Changed oil today and broke seal on OEM filter dropped it down and it was full of oil. Pulled FS2500 filter housing full dont know and cant figure how yours is down and mine is not unless the FS has something to do with the stopping of the siphon.