Amsoil Air Filter

[draymorris]

Update

Just wanted to update anyone following this post.



The engine knock seemed to improve as I ran the tank of fuel that the dealer added 2 cylce oil to. Then, it came back, and louder. I called the technician, he said to add 2 qts of 2 cycle oil to the full tank. This time it did not seem to help. It seems to be getting louder every day. They say it should knock more when it is cold - it actually is quieter when I first start it and gets loader after about 10 seconds or starting it.



I think something is wrong inside the engine. When I was at the dealer, they turned off the injectors one at a time. This did not get rid of the noise. Based on the bad oil analysis results, it would make sense that it somewhere in the engine. One problem is that I am afraid to tell them about the oil analysis because if they ask to see it they will see that I went 50K on the oil. If I thought Amsoil would stand behind me, I would do it, but I really don't think they will help here.



The oil analysis said much that is in question. They said that elevated copper levels is potentially from the oil cooler - as I understand it, there is some kind of oil cooling device on the engine that is made of copper. OK, but why would it start adding copper to the oil - does not make sense. Is not copper used in the bearings? Silicon elvated is stated to be from air induction system - yes, and it was an Amsoil air filter. How much damage can silcon do to an engine? Can it cause the wear that caused all the metals to appear. They did not comment on the huge number of iron or sodium or the increase from 8 to 17 ppm of aluminum and lead from 5 to 13. Aren't all these metals used in the alloys that bearing are made of?



I know this - I am really down on Amsoil right now. I am having Delo put back in the engine right now - again, don't want to let the dealer see Amsoil run out of the engine. Besides that i need to sample it.



I will continue to post progress if anyone wants me to.

 

[amsoilman]

If I thought Amsoil would stand behind me, I would do it, but I really don't think they will help here.



They will stand behind you... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... . if the oil is proven to have caused the problem! You must first get an oil analysis. This will show if the oil is/was the factor that caused a problem. ANY oil Company would first want this information before someting could be done regarding damage caused by lubricating oils.



If you want me to, I can help you regarding this, but first you must get an oil analysis, as well as determine if you infact have a problem.



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[GCecchetto]

I don't understand the issue here, unless the motor in question is out of warranty. If not find a good dealer and have the problem, what ever it is, fixed. I understand that any issue with your vehicle is a bummer but if it's under warranty it will get fixed even it it means a new motor. If I were you I would be pushing for a new motor not a repair if it requires the motor to be disassembled. It sounds like your dealer is screwing you with this two cycle oil thing. I'd tell him to shove his two cycle oil where the sun don't shine and find a dealer that wants to help you get your truck fixed. These comments are based of course on the assumption that since this is the 3rd gen list your truck is most likely still under warranty.



Gino

 

[amsoilman]

One more thing I would like to address here.



Is not copper used in the bearings?



Yes, Copper is used in some bearings, but if you had abnormal bearing wear, you would see high levels of other metals as well. The sodium you mention is an additive, and not wear.



In most cases I have seen in the Cummins engines, high copper values are quite common, as the oil cooler does slough off some copper at times.



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[ttreibel]

Before I was adding 2 bottles of 2cycle oil to the fuel I would add 1 full bottle of Stanadyne or Amsoil diesel fuel concentrate or even power service and see if that frees the injector. When these new engines knock it always seems to be a stuck injector.



I get the feeling that Dodge is trying to stall you past the 100K point and the end of your warranty.

 

[GSX600]

At 23,000 miles The dealer checked the injectors, they were OK. They replaced the injector pump, the knock was still there. They put a new camshaft in and that solved the knocking problem. 30,000 miles now.

 

[draymorris]

Sorry to be long, But...

Wayne, for review -

34K miles on truck-I changed to Amsoil 15-40 and filter to Amsoil, Paper(Napa brand) air filter. Sampled Delo that was in engine and had 5k on it using WIX oil filter, Iron-10,lead-0,copper-3,alum-0,silicon-5.



41k miles on truck- left engine oil in, installed Amsoil dual bypass unit, still using paper air filter, sampled oil results Iron-32,lead-3, copper-9, alum-6, silicon-8. To paraphrase: 5k on Delo compared to 7k on Amsoil TRIPLED iron, TRIPLED lead, TRIPLED copper, DOUBLED aluminum, but with the paper filter did not double the silicon. I thought Amsoil would cause less wear. I questioned this and was told that these numbers might be elevetad from the installation process because I installed the by-pass unit then took the sample from its sampling port.



51 k in truck - changed full flo filter on dual bapass, left bypass filter on, took oil sample - Iron-72 DOUBLED, Lead-5, Copper-15, Alum-8, Silicon-6. Still using paper air filter.



At this point I was content with the oil analysis, and based on some information from members on TDR, I decided that I should easily be able to make 50k on the oil.



63k miles on truck - Changed both filters, but did not have an oil sample kit. I was very busy and was not worried about taking another oil sample as much as just changing the filters. I installed an Amsoil Air filter at this time.



72K miles on truck - changed full flow oil filter. no sample



83k mile on truck - Changed both oil filters and oil (Amsoil oil), took sample - Iron 226,Lead 13, copper 483, alum 17, silicon 27, Oo. The only difference in conditions is the Amsoil Air Filter. As soon as I recieved these results, I went back to a paper air filter 86K miles



I don't think the copper we see here is from the oil cooler all of the sudden.

Did my oil just break down?

Did the silicon come through the air filter and act like abrasives in the engine cuasing the wear metals to appear?



89k on truck - recieved new sample kits and took sample - Iron 33, Lead -5, Copper 37, Alum - 1, silicon -2. I think I will stick with the paer filter.



92300 miles - found the time to remove Dual Bypass and replaced with Mobil 1 oil filter, left Amsoil oil in.



93200 miles - changed back to Delo, left Mobil oil filter on - took oil sample - result not in yet.



Which oil analysis do you want?



When I say "if I thought Amsoil would stand behind me... " My thoughts are: Will they admit any fault regarding the air filter and extended oil change. I feel like the response will be more like " How do I know that after another 50K I will not see just as much silicon using a paper filter?" and my answer will be " I am not taking that chance with my engine. " Or maybe they will just tell me I went too far without a sample. Or that I must have a defective engine.



The thing that hurts the most is that I spent this time and money to make the truck last longer, yet I may have damged it. I need this truck to last about 400K!



This knocking I am hearing is still not pinpointed, but I am still working on it.



Gino -

Yes it is still under warranty right now and my service tech has an open work order to keep this from running over the warranty. I am really not upset with the 2 cylce oil. The way this noise is acting - it may be an injector - but with my history listed above, I don't like the sound of it.



GSX600 - can you describe the knock you had?

 

[amsoilman]

Draymorris,

Can you tell me what the "Viscosity" reading was on the Amsoil oil, before you took it out?



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[GSX600]

It was a deep sounding knock like a bad injector.



03 QC LWB HO 48RE 4x4

 

[GCecchetto]

Gino -

Yes it is still under warranty right now and my service tech has an open work order to keep this from running over the warranty. I am really not upset with the 2 cylce oil. The way this noise is acting - it may be an injector - but with my history listed above, I don't like the sound of it.

I'm totally bummed for you! When something is wrong with my truck I want it fixed yesterday. I hope you get it worked out. When I was on the Hummer mailing list Amsoil always got a heated debate going. I see it is the same thing here. People either love it or think it's snake oil. I must admit it worries me when they start trying to sell me vitamins.



Gino

 

[draymorris]

My knock sounds more like a 24 valve engine - when it is really obvious.

 

[draymorris]

More Follow up related to this thread

Rear end oil!

If you look at my history on this web site, you will see that I have had some rear end problems and have also been an outspoken endorser of Amsoil. I hual loads heavier than most -maybe not as many miles, but heavier. I wanted to get more miles out of this truck even though I overload it, thus the dive into sythetics.



Rear end history:

7/30/03 21989 miles - had dealer check rear end and change fluid - cover had paint peeling and and something was making a growling noise - this has since proved to be the clutch.

11/13/03 40000 miles - changed to Amsoil 75-90 Had slight grinding feeling on corners when loaded at this change. I figured it was limited slip gears and might be normal. Lots of glitter sized flakes in fluid at change. My rear end continued to produce flakes as I monitored the plug magnet after this change.

4/21/04 67739 miles - grinding had continued to get worse. Dealer replaced rear end. Of coase went back to factory fluid. No grind at first, but came back slowly

6/24/04 77827 miles - dealer replaced ring, pinion, and pinion bearings and checked all adjustments. No grind after this. Seemed to be fixed.

9/2/04 92000miles - I installed mag hytec rear end cover and changed back to Amsoil. There had be NO grinding on turns until I did this. I felt the grind again on the first load I pulled after I did this! When I changed the cover, the factory fluid had no visible flakes and the "mud" that was on the magnet was silver and in small amount.

9/16/04 94900 miles - changed to CRC brand 75-90 becuase grind in getting worse. When I drained the fluid, both the magnetic dipstick and drain plug were covered in BLACK FLAKES AND "MUD" (not just the gray mud that should be normal. Cuased by Amsoil?!?!? Hard to prove! But I quit using Amsoil!



Lots of money down the drain - all to try to save money - very frustrating.

 

[Bertram65]

Pardon my ignorance, what is CRC brand oil?

 

[Badunit]

GSX600, I am curious about that knock. I have a deep sounding knock that comes on around 1500 rpm, peaks in volume/feel at 1800 rpm and is pretty much gone above 2000 rpm. The strange thing is that it seems to be there at the same noise level no matter whether I'm getting on it hard, cruising steady, coasting downhill, or holding a steady RPM in neutral. The other engine and exhaust sounds increase/decrease in volume at different throttle positions but this one stays pretty much the same; only affected by RPM. It isn't noticable if I accelerate quickly through that RPM range, only when it settles in for a second or more. I haven't the faintest clue what it might be and neither does the dealer I even tried removing the belt thinking it might be an accessory but it was still there. Was your knock anything like that?

 

[draymorris]

Crc

CRC - Chicago Rawhide Company

Old mfg of seals. I would imagine that they are just like Mopar - oil is bought from a contracted supplier.



Don't know much about the quality of this oil, but it is all I could get from my local Napa store in gallon jugs.



After replacing all this synthetic, the $ are getting to me and I did not want to pay $6 per qt for Valvoline synthetic. I just wanted oil. With the Mag Hytec cover, the rear holds almost 2 gallons of oil - $$$$ every 15K miles! Oo.

 

[amsoilman]

draymorris,



I think you must have something wrong with your differential. I installed the amsoil Series 2000 75W-90 and Mag-Hytec cover in my 03' truck at 8,500 miles. I recently had an oil analysis of this gearlube, which was done at 29,500 miles. This gearlube had 21,000 miles. Analysis report came back with Viscosity of 15. 2 cSt@ 100 c. This figure is only . 1 difference from new! New is 15. 1. OXD was 4. 4% NOX was 1. 4% and there was no solids Iron (Fe) was 169, and all the additives were reported as within the spec of new gearlube. My truck now only has 36,000 miles, so it has considerably less miles than yours.



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[draymorris]

Yes, I feel like I have something wrong with the rear end. There should not have been metal on the magnet the way there was. The thing to remember is that there was not flakes on the magnet when I removed the old cover and replaced it with the mag-hytec - that was Mopar fluid. The flakes appeared with Amsoil.



For the record - the grinding that I felt when turning sharp with a load has almost dissappeared since I removed the Amsoil from the rear end.



What is the definition of viscosity according to Amsoil? I don't think an analysis would show a viscosity change that you are reffering to on my oil either. I don't think the properties of the Amsoil are what is needed for these AA rear end when you put them under very heavy loads. And I really don't want to hear that I need 75-140.



I know that many people have had really good experiences with Amsoil, unfortunately I, now am not one of them. I push my truck to extremes, I know, but the advantages of synthetics was supposed to help it hold up "better" and I beleive it made it worse.



If I could I would ask for a refund on everything I have purchased from Amsoil. The oil that I used the longest, cost me major engine wear, the oils that I have used recently are being changes as soon as I can get to them. The oil that I have in stock will probably go in the trash.



All the fuel mileage and cooler running components is not worth what I see happening to my truck.

 

[amsoilman]

What is the definition of viscosity according to Amsoil?

Amsoil's definition of Viscosity is the same as any oil Company's definiton would be, and that is: VISCOSITY is a measure of the "Flow Rate" of an oil in relation to time, and is determined at 40 Deg. C/and or 100 Deg. C It is usually tested under ASTM D-445 test methods, and is reported as (cSt) Centistokes or (SUS) Seybolt Universal Seconds. In the case of Gear Lube, a 90 grade should read between 13. 5 cSt minimum and 24. 0 cSt Maximum. Anywhere in between these numbers, the gear lube would be considered as a 90 grade, measured at 100 Deg. C.



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[draymorris]

Compression?

What spec is used to determine how much pressure or compression a fluid can take?



That is where my problem is. If the oil cannot cushion the metel to metal contact surfaces and keep them from touching, then wear will occur.



Why would the grinding of my rear end go away with normal oil if Amsoil has the same properties or better?



I have a dual bypass unit and some Amsoil fluids for sale. Just PM me and name your price.

 

[amsoilman]

What spec is used to determine how much pressure or compression a fluid can take?

You can not readily compress a fluid! You can apply a pressure to it, and have the fluid transfer that energy, such as in the case of hydraulic valve lifters.



Generaly speaking in the case of differential gears, the gears are separated by a continuous film of fluid (gear lube), and is reffered to Hydrodynamic or Full Fluid Film lubrication. in this regime, the lubricant immediately adjacent to each surface travels at the same speed and direction of that surface. Hydrodynamic film thickness can be formed by wedging the gear lube thru a "gap" with the surface velocities. This wedging film action is similar to a car tire "Hydroplaning" on a wet surface. Hydrodynamic lubrication is limited by the lubricant's Viscosity, the rotation speed, and by component loading. An increase in speed or Viscosity increases the oil film thickness. An increase in load decreases the oil film thickness.



Oil Additives (Chemical Compounds) are added to all gear lubes to help protect the surfaces when the "fluid film" is to thin. Usually Phosphorus and/or Zinc.



Viscosity is very important, in that it is directly related to the load carrying ability.





Wayne

amsoilman