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I just got through looking through the API website and was trying to figure out why MACK wont certify the use of Amsoil fully synthetic oil in their trucks (most of them run the Cummins engines). Looks like Amsoil has opted out of the certification process for their fully synthetic oil line. API listed three products that could use the API mark or symbol showing their approval of the oil. The lowest grade blended oil (15W-40, product code PCO)and two other oils for gasser applications.



My understanding is that Amsoil wont do the API for their fully synthetic oils because they frequently use differing vendors or suppliers for their base stocks and they have such a wide range of difference that the API could not certify the oils. This sounded to me like Amsoil fully synthetic products were not up to the task of API's approval.

API is for oil what UL is for listing appliances for the home. The companies that manufacture oil have to stay within a strict tolerance of manufacture and have a consistant product to meet the criteria of API and receive the API rating or symbol.



Without an API certification it is hard for the everyday consumer to know the product is consistant. Unless you take Amsoil's word for it.

Further, why would Amsoil not certify their so called best product line?

Its kinda like asking me to buy an electrical appliance that is not independantly tested isnt it?



I am in the Fire Protection business. I daily have to provide data sheets from Factory Mutual and UL to show that equipment, valves, etc are tested and approved by them to Authorities Having Jurisdiction, Fire Departments, Fire Marshalls, etc.

This does not seem unreasonable when considering life safety issues are at hand. Why can we not ask that our engine oil is certified to at least an independant entity before pouring it in our engines? The API rating is at least that bare minimum to help guide us that the oil is a consistant product everytime you pick it up off the shelf.





Don~
 
Don,

This has been discussed in some detail before. Check the archives, and try the search feature.



If you think Amsoil does not meet or exceed the API specs, like they say they do, call the FTC, and get a lawsuit filed.



Personally, I have never needed the Government to baby sit me, but I know some people need that assistance, so you would be doing them a big favor.



Strange nobody has filed anything in all these years, don't you think?



Gene, NON API and LOVING it.
 
Don, I've always thought something was fishy about the lack of certification. It's not like it costs a fortune. Leads one to believe that it's because it won't pass...
 
Originally posted by illflem

Leads one to believe that it's because it won't pass...





:rolleyes:





illflem, I have documented proof (oil analysis reports) that clearly show Amsoil 15W-40 Heavy-Duty Diesel & Marine and Amsoil Series 3000 5W-30 HDD are superior to the following:



Cummins/Valvoline Premium Blue (mineral)



Cummins/Valvoline Premium Blue 2000 (semi-synthetic)



and Red Line 15W-40 (100% synthetic... no hydrocracked crap here!)



Just because you dislike synthetic lubricants doesn't mean they don't work.
 
I would like to see Amsoil API certified too. If it was certified I would KNOW that it was consistent product and that I will get the same thing in 6 months or a year. I do not buy the constant improvement story that has been passed around before either, does it need the changes? More than likely not. If it is that much better, and testing has proved it, then launch a new product and certify it. It is my belief that they change formulations just enough to preclude certification for whatever reasons they might have, like cheaper suppliers or insufficient quantities from regular suppliers or whatever. I do not believe that Amsoil will not meet API standards. What do I have to back that up? Absolutely NOTHING. I do think Amsoil is good oil and that it does what they say it does, but not providing the certification to me guaranteeing consistent product is enough to not use it when other companies will. As Diesel Freak alluded to, ISO 9002 would be enough to sway me. That would also guarantee consistent product.



Before I get flamed for my position answer this: Is consistency too much to ask for? I want to know when it is changed, and what that change will do for me.
 
ToddT

I guess it would be less since it is a synthetic blend. Which there isn't anything wrong with that. How long have you been using there products? Like, dislikes? What frequency do you change it at? Any thing else you can provide about them. Looks like a product I may be interested in.

Thanks,

Charlie
 
As anyone that has tried Amsoil synthetics knows, they do offer the highest quality oils on the market. Consider this: Every container of lubricant is formulated and produced at ONE LOCATION! Every other major oil manufacturer formulates and produces their products at several locations around the country! How could you not get CONSISTANCY by producing every product in the same facility?

Several years ago, there was an article written by Consumers Research on engine oils, and it was found by them during their research, that some of the oils they purchased at different locations around the US, DID NOT meet the same standards, as the ones they were comparing with. In other words, two containers purchased from different locations were not the same! IN fact as I recall, they found one brand of oil that was labeled as a specific Viscosity, buit when it was tested, it revealed a different Viscosity!



My . 02 cents worth,



Wayne
 
Not a Flame, but a Serious Question!

Originally posted by amsoilman

As anyone that has tried Amsoil synthetics knows, they do offer the highest quality oils on the market



Wayne, if that's the case, then why does Amsoil refuse to submit its products to the rigors of API certification when its competitors are willing to do so? There's an old market saying about customers - perception is reality! Amsoil might really be the best stuff on the market, but if the market perceives that the products are inferior because they don't/can't meet API, then that's a problem.....



JM2CW :rolleyes:



Rusty
 
I'm staying with Rotella 15W40 at 5K mile intervals and based on all of the testing of oils and wear etc. , my engine will last just as long as anyones engine that uses synthetic oil certified or not certified. Plus I love the smell of the Rotella for the first few hundred miles after the oil change, just like I love the sound of that Cummins engine :D Maybe I should be certified :)
 
Originally posted by Big Toy

I'm staying with Rotella 15W40 at 5K mile intervals and based on all of the testing of oils and wear etc. , my engine will last just as long as anyones engine that uses synthetic oil certified or not certified. Plus I love the smell of the Rotella for the first few hundred miles after the oil change, just like I love the sound of that Cummins engine :D Maybe I should be certified :)



The smell only adds to the trucks personality.
 
This info was taken from Amsoil web site



An API (American Petroleum Institute) license indicates that a specific motor oil formulation has passed the minimum performance standards as defined by a series of laboratory bench, physical, chemical and engine tests. These tests were selected and minimum performance standards were set by the API Lubricants Committee to address specific areas such as engine wear, deposits, fuel economy, emissions, etc. The committee is comprised of representatives from automobile, oil and additive companies. The current specification is SJ/GF-2, and in July 2001 the first use of SL/GF-3 will begin.

The cost for running a test program for a single passenger car motor oil formulation is from $125,000 to $300,000, depending on if the formula passes the tests the first time through or requires multiple test runs or formula modifications to achieve a passing average. (That amount goes to $275,000 to $500,000 for a Heavy Duty Diesel licensing program on a specific formula. ) Once that testing is complete and the formula has passed all of the minimum requirements, it can be licensed for $825 per year for non-members and $625 per year for members. There is also a small royalty fee per gallon sold for all gallons over one million. The length of time between new specifications is now approximately 2 to 3 years, which does not allow a great deal of time to recover testing costs.

Additive companies, such as Lubrizol, Ethyl, Infinium and Oronite, develop licensed formulas that they offer to oil companies to re-license. It is inexpensive to re-license one of these formulas, and the majority of oil companies choose to do this to avoid the costs associated with testing. This, however, tends to commoditize the market. The same chemistry is being sold under many brand names. Most of the major oil companies do have their own proprietary formulas developed, tested and licensed. All of AMSOIL INC. 's lubricant formulas are unique and proprietary.



The prevalent sources of phosphorous in motor oils are additives called zinc dithiophosphates (ZDTPs). Currently, these versatile additives act as oxidation/corrosion inhibitors and aid in the ability of a lubricant to reduce wear. The automobile manufacturers, however, have demanded that lubricants contain a maximum of only . 10% phosphorous.

Their reason is that some Manufacturers believe that higher phosphorous content levels will poison the catalytic converers on their cars before they reach 150,000 miles, which is the number of miles that their vehicles will be required to pass EPA emission standards. There has not been total agreement within the automotive and lubrication industry about whether phosphorous levels over . 10% actually do harm catalytic converters in the long run.

The maximum allowable NOACK volatility percentage for the new SL/GF-3 passenger car motor oil specification is 15%. Most of AMSOIL motor oils are in the 5% to 8% NOACK volatility range.



Studies have shown there is a correlation between NOACK volatility, oil consumption and the amount of phosphorous from motor oil that will end up in the exhaust gasses. Therefore, oils with higher levels of phosphorous but with low volatility, such as AMSOIL motor oils, present no more risk to catalytic converters than low phosphorous oils with higher NOACK volatility. This has also been demonstrated for years in actual application through state mandated exhaust gas testing on our Dealers' and customers' high mileage vehicles using AMSOIL synthetic motor oils.



State Inspectors are continually amazed at the low emissions levels generated by vehicles using AMSOIL products. So much for poisoning catalytic converters.



What they have failed to make allowances for is the NOACK volatility of an oil.



Why Some AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils Are API Licensed And Some Are Not?



1. Full API licensing puts AMSOIL INC. in an inflexible position. Not only would we find it necessary to buy formula components from specific vendors and be at the mercy of their pricing, we would not be able to make any major improvements to the lubricant formulas for 2 to 3 years, without new testing and the associated costs.



To solve this problem, the API must establish basestock interchange guidelines for synthetic basestocks just as they have for other basestocks, as well as develop interchange guidelines for other components too.



2. Full API licensing would impose strict phosphorous limitations on our motor oils. This limitation is the main reason most AMSOIL motor oils are not API licensed. AMSOIL INC. currently disagrees with this limitation and feels strongly that the reduced wear and longer oil and additive life achieved through higher levels of properly balanced phosphorous content is more important than the arbitrary API phosphorous limit that does not give any consideration to the NOACK volatility level of an oil. When chemistry is developed that will provide superior engine wear protection with reduced phosphorous levels, or Noack volatility considerations are put in place, then the Phosphorous level will become a non-issue.



How Does AMSOIL INC. Ensure Their Products Meet Or Exceed The Minimum Specifications Of The Tests Required For API Licensing?



First, AMSOIL INC. works closely with major additive companies to select the top performing, and usually most expensive, passenger car and heavy duty diesel motor oil additives. These additives have already passed all of the API licensing requirements in a petroleum or synthetic based formulation. Then we work with the additive company to maximize the amount of additive used and to boost the additive package in selected performance areas to achieve an optimum performing additive package for reduced wear and extended drain intervals. This is unlike the vast majority of companies who, because additives are expensive, use the minimum amount of the least expensive additives required to meet the minimum API requirements.



We then utilize a blend of synthetic basestocks with known performance characteristics as a replacement for the petroleum basestocks to optimize performance in areas of lubricity, volatility, viscosity index, oxidation and nitration resistance, pour points, flash points, deposit control, soot handling, emissions, etc. We also will utilize a highly shear stable V. I. improver to ensure viscosity retention throughout extended drain intervals. This replaces the inexpensive and less shear stable V. I. improver used in the API licensed petroleum formula. We do laboratory bench tests before running field tests to verify the superiority of the synthetic formula in actual use. We also continue to monitor the performance of the oil through close scrutiny of tens of thousands of oil analysis tests per year across a wide variety of vehicles all around North America and the World.



AMSOIL INC. has been collecting used synthetic oil samples from passenger cars since 1982. No other oil company has such a vast data base of the performance of synthetic lubricants over extended drain intervals.



AMSOIL INC. 's products and formulations outperform API licensed oils. They're engineered that way. Period.



Conclusion



AMSOIL INC. takes pride in never having conformed to industry norms or standards when those standards are contrary to peak performance. We introduced synthetics to the automotive world in 1972 with the first synthetic motor oil to exceed API performance specifications. At that time other manufacturers refused to recognize the superior performance of synthetic motor oils. Now, however, most companies sell synthetic lubricants, vehicles are factory filled with synthetic motor oils and gear lubes, and some manufacturers even offer extended warranties if you use synthetics. AMSOIL has always offered extended drain intervals because the oil was capable of performing for extended drains, and it was the right thing to do for the consumer. Now the entire industry is moving in that direction. Ironically, it was recently published that automotive manufacturers will be recommending extended drain intervals of up to 15,000 miles in the near future because that's what consumers want.



AMSOIL is a company of firsts. That doesn't happen by always conforming to industry norms and standards.



API licensing of lubricants is voluntary, and it ensures automobile manufacturers and consumers that the product meets a set of minimum standards. Should these standards, in the future, be raised to a level consistent with AMSOIL's standards for motor oil performance, AMSOIL will consider licensing all oils.

For those that feel pressured to use an API licensed product, we have them and encourage you to use them (XLT, XLF and PCO). AMSOIL does offer

better performing motor oils that are not API licensed for all of the reasons explained in this response. They provide our customers with alternatives to the commodity products typically available in the market today. If you want the convenience of extended drain intervals or the top performance from your vehicle, AMSOIL has taken time to engineer the very best money can buy.



Hope this answers some questions.



Wayne
 
With that being said

What is the Phosphate content of AMSOIL?

What is the neutralization number for AMSOIL?



1. Full API licensing puts AMSOIL INC. in an inflexible position. Not only would we find it necessary to buy formula components from specific vendors and be at the mercy of their pricing, we would not be able to make any major improvements to the lubricant formulas for 2 to 3 years, without new testing and the associated costs. To solve this problem, the API must establish basestock interchange guidelines for synthetic basestocks just as they have for other basestocks, as well as develop interchange guidelines for other components too.





This is exactly why I asked about ISO 9002 Certification. The above statement tells me that AMSOIL can and does change base stocks etc. when cost or availability become issues.
 
No Wayne, they did not read it. I have felt for a long time some people don't want answers anyway.



It reminds of Rev. Jim Baker, telling people they would not get into heaven without his stamp of approval on their forehead.



What is funny, is nobody out here thinks the Government does anything right, but they believe in the API.



Please, somebody file a lawsuit to get this put away.

Oh yea, I forgot. Nobody files lawsuits they can't win.





Bottom line, Amsoil meets or exceeds API specs. If you need the stamp, don't use it. Wal Mart has shelves of ordinary oil, that will work fine.



For what I'm doing, I need the extra protection, stamp or no, Amsoil is in my engine.

Gene





:) :)
 
It makes me wonder how many of these same people that are nitpicking unnecessarily over a regulatory detail, have at one time or another, purchased and used Slick 50 or Duralube(in any motor vehicle) without bothering to find out the details first. Anybody remember the old STP oil additives? Come on now, you used it, a long time ago, didn't you? :D Motor Hunny? :D They don't tell you what they put in that stuff. I doubt it's certified. I haven't looked. And Slick 50 is being sued for a variety of things.

Have a little faith. Amsoil is indeed the best. I have a friend that took his stock Dodge Cummins 12 Valve well over 250,000 miles on the same oil change, just changing filters. The inside of his valve covers was clean enough to eat out of. He had all the paperwork, and oil analysis, to back it up. Sure, any oil will take you the distance. But it won't protect you as well in some of the extremes we subject these trucks to, high temperatures while towing, better protection for the turbo bearings, and cold starts in extreme cold. I'm hard on the truck, I need the extra protection.

It's just a truck. How many of you make this much fuss over the medicine you give your child? How well regulated is Dimetapp cough syrup? What's in it? Can the FDA be trusted to watch it carefully enough?
 
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Wayne, where an oil is produced has NOTHING to do with consistency, one plant or 50 plants. I do appreciate you posting the official Amsoil position on the API. In that information Amsoil makes specifically the point that formulations change regularly.



Gene, get a grip :rolleyes: The point I made in my first post has not been addressed yet. The point was also made by Diesel Freak, and again not addressed. This has NOTHING to do with wanting to be babysat by the government either. If you were not aware before Gene, take note that THE API IS NOT A GOVERNMENT AGENCY!!! I am looking for answers and not propaganda or sidestepping. The word of a company being gospel truth is more akin to the blindly following Jim Baker than independant testing ever will be. You insult our intelligence and expect us to respect your position?



I will make my point again. I want to be assured that I am getting the same product when I buy my oil. The API certification gives me a reasonable expectation that the oil I buy next week will be the same as the stuff I bought last month and that it is subject to outside verification, Amsoil wants me to take their word that it is. Sorry, but I trust businesses as much as I trust the government. ISO 9002 registration would satisfy my need for consistency.



It also appears that the guys attempting to answer on Amsoils behalf are not aware of exactly what ISO standardization is. The short simple version is that it is a process of verifying and maintaining standards and processes used in the manufacture of something, again with outside verification that minimum standards are met.



Is Amsoil ISO 9002 certified?
 
All I asked was a simple yes/no question. However, the why/why not question to follow is not a simple one and they know it, and as usual they are avoiding answering it directly.



ISO does not dictate "how" a product is produced, but rather standard test and managenent criteria to ensure that a product made in Israel is identical to a the same product made in Santa Clara Ca.
 
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