Amsoil BMK-15ea dual filter kit

[Ducman82]

Last time i checked, amsoil said it was a bad idea to use the dual filter (bypass and full flow) kits on a newer 2004. 5 and up cummins do to the drop in oil pressure. Is that still true? if not, id like to get both my filters in the same place.

 

[amsoilman]

Last time i checked, amsoil said it was a bad idea to use the dual filter (bypass and full flow) kits on a newer 2004. 5 and up cummins do to the drop in oil pressure. Is that still true? if not, id like to get both my filters in the same place.

Amsoil Inc. did a re-design recently of the Duel-Remote By-pass Systems, and they also changed the Stock Number. The new number is:BMK-25 for the Dodge/Cummins applications. In their re-design, they did increase the size of the hoses to 1/2 ID, and made a few changes to the mount itself. I do not know af anyone that has complained about them.



wayne

 

[Ducman82]

well thats great to hear! thanks wayne.

 

[p-Bar]

Wayne I have never had a problem withe old dual setup on my 04. 5. I am using Tri County Machine mount and hoses though.

 

[AH64ID]

Amsoil Inc. did a re-design recently of the Duel-Remote By-pass Systems, and they also changed the Stock Number. The new number is:BMK-25 for the Dodge/Cummins applications. In their re-design, they did increase the size of the hoses to 1/2 ID, and made a few changes to the mount itself. I do not know af anyone that has complained about them.



wayne

I have read of some people still having the same issue as with the previous design.





Personally I like keeping the OE filter in its OE location (the Ea080/ELF7349 is a GREAT filter) and having just the bypass remote mounted. . Besides there isn't much room to mount a dual setup with the EaBP-110 as big as it is.

 

[Ducman82]

ya the 110 is a HUGE filer. i run the 100 right now.

 

[amsoilman]

Wayne I have never had a problem withe old dual setup on my 04. 5. I am using Tri County Machine mount and hoses though.

That is good to hear. Some of the later Dodge/Cummins applications did experience a low or no pressure indication on the gauge in the dash, but when the issue became more prevalent, Amsoil Inc. and Dodge did some testing and found even when the gauges were indicating low or no pressure, there was still plenty of oil pressure when reading from a reliable direct reading oil pressure gauge attached to the engines.



One of the reasons for the re-design was to add the spin-on adapter, improve oil flow by going to larger 1/2“ID from 13/32”ID hose that have larger fittings. They also changed the flow of oil within the mount to go to the Full-Flow filter first, and the by-pass filter last.

The mounts are now made of injection molded A380-grade aluminum alloy with polymeric

Vacuum impregnation, eliminating cracking and possible leakage, as opposed to the original billet mounts which restricted the ability to improve the performance of the overall system.



In addition, four more feet of hose is included with the

kits, ensuring most installations can be completed without

ordering more hose to finish the job.



And of course Amsoil Inc. wanted to make it so the issue of low or no oil pressure would go away, so the customer was not impacted with major concerns of engine oiling issues.

 

[AH64ID]

That is good to hear. Some of the later Dodge/Cummins applications did experience a low or no pressure indication on the gauge in the dash, but when the issue became more prevalent, Amsoil Inc. and Dodge did some testing and found even when the gauges were indicating low or no pressure, there was still plenty of oil pressure when reading from a reliable direct reading oil pressure gauge attached to the engines.

Which still doesn't make sense to me... How can a mechanical gauge see more than 6psi when the switch doesn't? I have my mech gaguge hooked up in the port after the psi switch and with just the bypass it can take 3-4 seconds to see any oil psi on that side of the block if the oil is COLD, I would imagine that if you read pressure on the port in the oil filter housing it would come up much quicker. . which could be why the OEM switch was saying pressure was low, and the study showed it was fine (assuming that Amsoil tested the pressure at the filter head, where it's the easiest to get a reading)

 

[brods]

... ... They also changed the flow of oil within the mount to go to the Full-Flow filter first, and the by-pass filter last. ... ... .

Good. Do they still restrict the flow in the filter head to create a pressure drop to force oil to run through the bypass filter?

Which still doesn't make sense to me... How can a mechanical gauge see more than 6psi when the switch doesn't? I have my mech gaguge hooked up in the port after the psi switch and with just the bypass it can take 3-4 seconds to see any oil psi on that side of the block if the oil is COLD, I would imagine that if you read pressure on the port in the oil filter housing it would come up much quicker. . which could be why the OEM switch was saying pressure was low, and the study showed it was fine (assuming that Amsoil tested the pressure at the filter head, where it's the easiest to get a reading)

Bingo. Amsoil never did come clean on how they did their "tests" and/or show data to support their claims on their tsb thing.

That is good to hear. Some of the later Dodge/Cummins applications did experience a low or no pressure indication on the gauge in the dash, but when the issue became more prevalent, Amsoil Inc. and Dodge did some testing and found even when the gauges were indicating low or no pressure, there was still plenty of oil pressure when reading from a reliable direct reading oil pressure gauge attached to the engines. ...

The Dodge Corporation officially participated in the tests? Can you tell us the title(s) of the Dodge representative(s) in attendance? Can we get the actual test data to support the claims? What specifically is "plenty of oil pressure"? What was the type of gauge used? Was more than one gauge per engine used? Was it calibrated or checked to verify proper operation both before and after the test? Where was the gauge(s) attached? Was more than one engine checked? How many times was the test repeated? Were any of the test trucks allowed to sit for extended periods to allow for oil drainback before repeating the test? Etc.

 

[amsoilman]

Good. Do they still restrict the flow in the filter head to create a pressure drop to force oil to run through the bypass filter?



Bingo. Amsoil never did come clean on how they did their "tests" and/or show data to support their claims on their tsb thing.







The Dodge Corporation officially participated in the tests? Can you tell us the title(s) of the Dodge representative(s) in attendance? Can we get the actual test data to support the claims? What specifically is "plenty of oil pressure"? What was the type of gauge used? Was more than one gauge per engine used? Was it calibrated or checked to verify proper operation both before and after the test? Where was the gauge(s) attached? Was more than one engine checked? How many times was the test repeated? Were any of the test trucks allowed to sit for extended periods to allow for oil drainback before repeating the test? Etc.

FIRST QUESTION: In any oil by-pass filter system, there is always a need to restrict flow through the by-pass filter, which does increase/maintain pressure behind the restriction devise, which is usually a small hole. (orifice)

This is due to the "tightness" of the filtering media, in Amsoil's case 2 MICRON. If full pressure and flow were directed through this type filter, it would rip the fitering media apart in quick time.



NEXT TWO QUESTIONS: I have no idea, I just know what I was told by the person behind the engineering of the by-pass systems. I was also told, they spent several months in the design of the systems.



Now if you can't believe what someone tells you from the head of the department who engineers a product, I guess you would have to be there to oversee the situation in person.

 

[p-Bar]

Amsoilman think Amsoil will comp me or some sort of trade in to upgrade to the better design??

 

[amsoilman]

Amsoilman think Amsoil will comp me or some sort of trade in to upgrade to the better design??

You could certainly try, but I doubt they would,



Wayne

 

[brods]

FIRST QUESTION: In any oil by-pass filter system, there is always a need to restrict flow through the by-pass filter, which does increase/maintain pressure behind the restriction devise, which is usually a small hole. (orifice)

This is due to the "tightness" of the filtering media, in Amsoil's case 2 MICRON. If full pressure and flow were directed through this type filter, it would rip the fitering media apart in quick time.



NEXT TWO QUESTIONS: I have no idea, I just know what I was told by the person behind the engineering of the by-pass systems. I was also told, they spent several months in the design of the systems.



Now if you can't believe what someone tells you from the head of the department who engineers a product, I guess you would have to be there to oversee the situation in person.

We are talking about two different restrictions. Yes I understand the need to restrict flow through the bypass filter itself. What I am asking is if the redesigned filter head has a restriction in the main oil flow to the engine in order to force oil to flow through the bypass filter. The last design had a spring valve to create this back pressure.



The reason for the restriction is so that one small hose doesn’t have to be run from the remote filter head to the pan or valve cover, yes? Wouldn’t you agree that the dual remote is a rather involved install? Would an additional small hose to install really be the deal breaker whether a consumer would buy the product? If the consumer was told of the trade off and that the restriction negatively effects oil pressure rise at startup, every startup, would they really opt for the restriction over installing one more small hose???



Another factor to consider is cold starts where the engine’s internal filter bypass circuit allows oil from the pan to go directly into the engine. Any added restriction in the filter circuit will prolong the time the bypass is open and allow more unfiltered oil into the engine. So not only is the oil pressure at every startup delayed longer than stock with the dual remote setup, you also have more unfiltered oil going into the engine during cold starts. Just seems counter productive if the ultimate purpose of the device is to prolong engine life.



Amsoil simply can’t have it both ways:

Independent studies have concluded that engine wear during start-up is a major concern. Even though engine components remain dry for only a short period of time at ignition, when this circumstance is multiplied by the 400 to 600 dry starts a year by the average motorist, the potential for harmful metal-on-metal contact and significant wear is great.

Either any increase in the delay of oil pressure at startup is bad or the above quote from Amsoil’s website is wrong. Which is it? The truth should not be dependant on which product you happen to be selling at the time. That is the rub here. There is conflicting information from Amsoil which has not been addressed. Just the "trust us we tested it".



It is good to see they are trying to improve the product, lets hope it continues.

 

[Ducman82]

id think the kit would work the same as a full flow would with the bypass from the filter head. all you are doing is moving it.

 

[BDaugherty]

That is good to hear. Some of the later Dodge/Cummins applications did experience a low or no pressure indication on the gauge in the dash, but when the issue became more prevalent, Amsoil Inc. and Dodge did some testing and found even when the gauges were indicating low or no pressure, there was still plenty of oil pressure when reading from a reliable direct reading oil pressure gauge attached to the engines.

One of my close friends bought the old style dual remote kit for his '05 CTD. He removed it in favor of the single remote bypass due to the no oil psi warning light. After doing some reading, he decided that it was due to the way that the 04. 5 and up trucks read oil psi. He gave it to another close friend who has a '03 CTD. That friend mounted the system and had the same no psi at startup problem. He went out and spent even more $$ on a nice mechanical oil psi gauge. It turned out that after sitting overnight with ambient temps in the 50-60 range and using Amsoil 15w40, it would take about 12 seconds to build oil psi on his gauge. After removing the bypass system and going back to the stock filter only, he would see oil psi in about 2-4 seconds. After a not so fulfilling conversation with an Amsoil rep, he threw the whole thing in the trash. We never could figure out why it would have acted that way. The whole thing was mounted lower than the oil pan and he really spent a lot of time and money routing the hoses and making everything really nice. It was a huge disappointment.

 

[amsoilman]

The truth is, every Full-Flow Oil filter has a built in by-pass of some sort, and most of them open when there is 7-9 PSI differential between inlet pressure and outlet pressure, so in essence, the valves are open quite a bit of the time!



And to follow up on the Amsoil Duel-Remote, as far as vehicles showing low/no pressure at times with one of these units installed, the Dodge/Cummins is the only application that I have ever come accross where this occurs, and it is caused by the way Dodge has the pressure gauge reading oil pressure, which is just a "switch" that turns on a circuit within the computer to give some sort of oil pressure reading.

BTW, when I was working with the local School district and their Cummins powered "Bluebird" buses, Cummins gave us a minimum of 10 PSI oil pressure at Idle!

 

[BDaugherty]

The truth is, every Full-Flow Oil filter has a built in by-pass of some sort, and most of them open when there is 7-9 PSI differential between inlet pressure and outlet pressure, so in essence, the valves are open quite a bit of the time!



And to follow up on the Amsoil Duel-Remote, as far as vehicles showing low/no pressure at times with one of these units installed, the Dodge/Cummins is the only application that I have ever come accross where this occurs, and it is caused by the way Dodge has the pressure gauge reading oil pressure, which is just a "switch" that turns on a circuit within the computer to give some sort of oil pressure reading.

BTW, when I was working with the local School district and their Cummins powered "Bluebird" buses, Cummins gave us a minimum of 10 PSI oil pressure at Idle!

I'm not anti-Amsoil. I think it's great stuff and I use it in multiple compartments of various vehicles that I take care of. However, I have to call you out on this latest round of semi-truth.



How many oil filters have you ever cut open? All I've ever found in my filters was an anti-drainback valve. The cold oil/filter restriction bypass valve is found it the oil filter base on our Cummins engines as well as most of the CAT engines that I repair at work. I'm not saying hard and fast that NO filters have internal bypasses, just that I haven't seen one.



From the 2001 Dodge Ram Factory Service Manual:

OPERATION

A gerotor style oil pump draws oil from the crankcase

through the suction tube and delivers it through

the block where it enters the oil cooler cover and

pressure regulator valve. When oil pressure exceeds

449 kPa (65 PSI), the valve opens exposing the dump

port, which routes excess oil back to the oil sump.

At the same time, oil is directed to a cast in passage

in the oil cooler cover, leading to the oil cooler

element. As the oil travels through the element

plates, it is cooled by engine coolant traveling past

the outside of the plates. It is then routed to the oil

filter head and through a full flow oil filter. If a

plugged filter is encountered, the filter by-pass valve

opens, allowing unfiltered oil to lubricate the engine.

This condition can be avoided by frequent oil and filter

changes, per the maintenance schedules found in

the owners manual. The by-pass valve is calibrated

to open when it sees a pressure drop of more than

344 kPa (50 psi) across the oil filter.





Like I stated previously, both of my friends that used the dual remote system thought that the no pressure warning was due to the screwy way Dodge uses the ECM to make our gauges into dummy lights. However, the findings were backed up by manual gauge readings. No pressure is no pressure. NOT a software glitch. I have no idea why it works the way it does, but it's 100% truth.



From the 2001 Dodge Ram factory service manual:

DIAGNOSIS AND TESTING—ENGINE OIL

PRESSURE

(1) Remove the engine oil pressure sensor and

install Oil Pressure Line and Gauge Tool C-3292 with

a suitable adapter.

(2) Start engine and warm to operating temperature.

(3) Record engine oil pressure and compare with

engine oil pressure chart.

CAUTION: If engine oil pressure is zero at idle, DO

NOT RUN THE ENGINE.

Engine Oil Pressure (MIN)

At Idle 103. 4 kPa (15 psi)

At 2000 rpm 310. 2 kPa (45 psi)

If minimum engine oil pressure is below these

ranges, (Refer to 9 - ENGINE - DIAGNOSIS AND

TESTING).

(4) Remove oil pressure gauge and install the oil

pressure sensor. Tighten the sensor to 16 N·m (144

in. lbs. ) torque.



Note several things:

1. Minimum hot oil psi is 15.

2. Oil psi is measured with a manual gauge from the same location on the engine as the sender/switch reads from.

3. If oil psi is 0, Do Not Run The Engine.

 

[Cliffman]

I have the Amsoil duel remote system installed on my 01. Due to the twins I had to relocate the system back on the frame rail. I used 20' (2-10's) of hose to get the unit where it needed to be due to the air compressor and tank located on the same frame fail. On cold starts I'm seeing about 3-4 seconds of 0 PSI. No warrning lights come on.

 

[p-Bar]

Wayne I have never had a problem withe old dual setup on my 04. 5. I am using Tri County Machine mount and hoses though.

I also use a pre oiler this was added later though

 

[amsoilman]

I'm not anti-Amsoil. I think it's great stuff and I use it in multiple compartments of various vehicles that I take care of. However, I have to call you out on this latest round of semi-truth.



How many oil filters have you ever cut open? All I've ever found in my filters was an anti-drainback valve. The cold oil/filter restriction bypass valve is found it the oil filter base on our Cummins engines as well as most of the CAT engines that I repair at work. I'm not saying hard and fast that NO filters have internal bypasses, just that I haven't seen one.



From the 2001 Dodge Ram Factory Service Manual:

OPERATION

A gerotor style oil pump draws oil from the crankcase

through the suction tube and delivers it through

the block where it enters the oil cooler cover and

pressure regulator valve. When oil pressure exceeds

449 kPa (65 PSI), the valve opens exposing the dump

port, which routes excess oil back to the oil sump.

At the same time, oil is directed to a cast in passage

in the oil cooler cover, leading to the oil cooler

element. As the oil travels through the element

plates, it is cooled by engine coolant traveling past

the outside of the plates. It is then routed to the oil

filter head and through a full flow oil filter. If a

plugged filter is encountered, the filter by-pass valve

opens, allowing unfiltered oil to lubricate the engine.

This condition can be avoided by frequent oil and filter

changes, per the maintenance schedules found in

the owners manual. The by-pass valve is calibrated

to open when it sees a pressure drop of more than

344 kPa (50 psi) across the oil filter.





Like I stated previously, both of my friends that used the dual remote system thought that the no pressure warning was due to the screwy way Dodge uses the ECM to make our gauges into dummy lights. However, the findings were backed up by manual gauge readings. No pressure is no pressure. NOT a software glitch. I have no idea why it works the way it does, but it's 100% truth.



From the 2001 Dodge Ram factory service manual:

DIAGNOSIS AND TESTING—ENGINE OIL

PRESSURE

(1) Remove the engine oil pressure sensor and

install Oil Pressure Line and Gauge Tool C-3292 with

a suitable adapter.

(2) Start engine and warm to operating temperature.

(3) Record engine oil pressure and compare with

engine oil pressure chart.

CAUTION: If engine oil pressure is zero at idle, DO

NOT RUN THE ENGINE.

Engine Oil Pressure (MIN)

At Idle 103. 4 kPa (15 psi)

At 2000 rpm 310. 2 kPa (45 psi)

If minimum engine oil pressure is below these

ranges, (Refer to 9 - ENGINE - DIAGNOSIS AND

TESTING).

(4) Remove oil pressure gauge and install the oil

pressure sensor. Tighten the sensor to 16 N·m (144

in. lbs. ) torque.



Note several things:

1. Minimum hot oil psi is 15.

2. Oil psi is measured with a manual gauge from the same location on the engine as the sender/switch reads from.

3. If oil psi is 0, Do Not Run The Engine.

I'm not doubting your word! Yes, I have cut up many oil filters, probably more than a hundred and most do have a by-pass valve in them. True, on most engines there is also a by-pass valve like you mention. Nearly all of the Amsoil EaO filters have them, and ,most have an anti-drain back valve as well.



As mentioned earlier, the Dodge/Cummins 04" and later are the ones that have had issues. No Ford, GM, or none of the General Engines using this system. I even had one on an earlier (94' Dodge/Cummins) model that never had an issue with oil pressure, and I put 150,000 plus on it. My current truck, a 2003 HO model, has the Single unit on it, but unlike the duel-by-pass, it only flows a small amount of oil through the by-pass element, where the Full-Flow element flows 90 % of the oil.

Personally, I advise people to use the "Single" unit, as it is a much easier unit to install in my opinion, and also does not have oil pressure issues on the later Dodge/Cummins applications.

As far a filtering, both systems filter the oil very well, they just do it in a different manner, in the way the oil flows through the system.